SuccessFULL With ADHD

Retraining the ADHD Dysregulated Nervous System with Jenna Free

• Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC • Episode 123

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 51:01

What if the reason productivity strategies haven’t worked isn’t because you’re lazy, unmotivated, or “bad at ADHD”—but because your nervous system is stuck in survival mode?

In this conversation, I’m joined by ADHD counselor and author Jenna Free, whose approach to ADHD starts with regulation before productivity. Jenna shares why so many ADHDers find themselves trapped in cycles of overwhelm, paralysis, burnout, and all-or-nothing thinking—and how learning to regulate your nervous system can create lasting change. We explore the connection between ADHD, anxiety, fight-or-flight responses, and executive functioning, while challenging some of the common assumptions about what ADHD really is. If you’ve ever felt exhausted from trying harder and getting nowhere, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on what it takes to move forward.

Episode Highlights

[0:40] - Meet Jenna Free and why regulation comes before productivity

[1:32] - The difference between avoidance and a nervous system stuck in fight-or-flight

[4:25] - Why awareness is the first step toward meaningful change

[5:59] - The “spinning wheels” analogy and why slowing down helps you move forward

[7:18] - Escaping the frantic-crash cycle that keeps ADHDers stuck

[12:13] - ADHD, anxiety, OCD, and the role of nervous system dysregulation

[13:57] - Jenna’s three-layer framework for ADHD regulation

[19:37] - How thoughts, beliefs, and self-talk fuel dysregulation

[27:59] - All-or-nothing thinking, perfectionism, and finding flexibility

[36:16] - Can regulation improve ADHD symptoms and task initiation?

[44:27] - What a regulated ADHD life actually looks like

[48:47] - Jenna’s new book and where to connect with her

Links & Resources

Jenna Free (CCC) is an ADHD counselor who also has ADHD. She specializes in helping ADHD brains move out of fight-or-flight and into a more regulated, sustainable state while honoring neurodivergence and individual strengths. Through her ADHD Regulation Groups and professional certification program, Jenna teaches practical strategies that help ADHDers become more productive while enjoying life more. Jenna lives in Calgary, Alberta, with her husband and two sons, and loves exploring new hobbies, including acting, tennis, and yoga.

Thank you for tuning into "SuccessFULL with ADHD." If this episode has impacted you, remember to rate, follow, share, and review our podcast. Your support helps us reach and help more individuals navigating their journeys with ADHD.

 

 

 

🚨Calling all aspiring ADHD coaches ▶️ https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com/coach-certification-and-training

Help your clients break free from paralysis and better manage their life with 3C Activation® coach training!

💥Gain a proven process for ADHD coaching

💥Earn 38 ICF Credits and 25.5 PAAC CCE’s

💥Learn the latest neuroscience to boost your practice

💥Qualify to be listed under ACO Directory

Learn more ▶️ https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com/coach-certification-and-training

Unknown:

So, when people come into my world, and they say, "I have ADHD and anxiety and OCD, those are all dysregulation-related diagnoses. So, just do the same work for all of it. Let's get you out of fight or flight, get your system aligned with reality. So, that's going to mean, if you're safe, you feel safe inside, you're present in the moment, and not living in the future or the past, and we're here, and we figure out, oh, I'm safe to be here mentally, physically, and feel safe to do that slow and steady wins the race thing, and so you're not just gonna, you know, be told, hey, this works better, do it, we have to actually retrain the nervous system to feel safe doing that.

Brooke Schnittman:

Welcome to Successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke Schnittman. Let's get started today. I'm joined by Jenna Free, who's a counselor for ADHD with ADHD, and what I appreciate about her work is she doesn't start with productivity, she starts with regulation, and I tell so many people about that, like if you are coming for productivity and you're coming for time hacks. Well, you can't just start with that. You have to start with awareness and regulation. Jenna understands that if your brain is stuck in fight or flight, no strategy is going to stick, and she works with ADHD years to actually get their brains out of that state, so they can function and feel better doing it, so Jenna, let's start here. How do you know when your brain is in that fight or flight mode versus just avoiding something?

Unknown:

Absolutely. So, a good way to think about it is, is it compulsive or is it a conscious choice? We're adults and we get to do whatever we want to do. If you want to avoid taxes for the rest of your life, and that's going to hang over your head, but that's your choice. You get to do that, but if you're thinking, well, I couldn't even do that if I wanted to, or I want to do that and just can't get started, that is when the nervous system is in play, because if it was just a conscious mind problem, you would decide to do it, but it's often not a choice. It is, I am stuck, and it is not of my choosing where I'm going or not going, and that is how we know the nervous system and its subconscious are currently at the wheel. And, of course, things don't end up so well when we're not choosing where we're going.

Brooke Schnittman:

I love that, and people understanding that. I'm sure reduces so much shame in knowing that their nervous system is blocked compared to that making a conscious choice of just choosing not to do the thing,

Unknown:

it's so huge, and I would say that's the number one thing is awareness and buy-in. So, first we need to buy into being regulated, we cannot do it because we think we should. If you're doing it because I heard it's good for you, you will never do it to the degree that you need to in order to make a difference. So, don't bother until you're bought in, meaning I understand why I want to do it. I understand how it's affecting me negatively, and I am motivated, which I know is not always easy when we're in fight or flight, but I want it bad enough that I'm going to do the uncomfortable work of going against the system that feels unsafe. I'm going to do things differently, so we have to buy in, and we have to be aware that we're in fight or flight or dysregulated. What I see in the ADHD world, typically content, especially is a is it's just the way it is, that's ADHD, and people would be just describing symptoms. There's just me on my phone wanting to say, but that's dysregulation, like that could get so much better. Why are you teaching everybody that's just how it is? And you have to suck it up and use your tips and tricks and hacks to not drown, I get very frustrated, ironically slightly dysregulated, looking at a lot of ADHD content, because I think that's what we are being taught, and it's keeping us stuck. So, first buy-in of why should I get regulated? Why do I care? Because it's not about that, it's the right thing to do, or that you should, and then, oh, can I put my red dysregulation goggles on? Can I see myself through the lens of assuming everything I do and everything I struggle with, at least at the start, is because I'm in fight or flight, and then once you start doing that, you go, oh, I see why I'm doing that, that makes a lot more sense, and I think we understand ourselves a lot better.

Brooke Schnittman:

I'm glad you said that, because I know the why is huge. However, when you are stuck in fight or flight and you're dysregulated, it's very hard to understand the why, and to me, I feel like we just need to create some momentum and some traction, or else we just stay stuck, so doing those micro shifts right, and then being able to regulate. What are your thoughts on that?

Unknown:

Absolutely, but I do think even the first shift, what I think kind of is what you're saying, is do the awareness work first when you start realizing, and this is like session one to two. Two of the groups that I do, people come back at session two. They're like, okay, so I'm dysregulated 24/7 I'm like, yeah, so now that you see it, what if that wasn't there? Like, imagine how powerful that would be. If 24/7 your body is draining energy because of the state you're in, your executive functioning is down because of the state you're in, your symptoms of ADHD are increased. You are in paralysis because of this. You look at all the problems it caught, it's causing people do become quite motivated to do this work, even though we're still dysregulated. But that awareness will open a lot of doors to, like, oh, I see why I want to do this.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yes, yes, all starting with awareness. So, there's lots of focus on productivity, and I think we spoke about the tips and tricks, and, but without the regulation, it usually backfires. So, how do you explain that to clients who keep trying to push through

Unknown:

it? Totally, a great analogy would be a car spinning its wheels. So, imagine right now you're a car spinning your wheels, you have the pedal to the metal, you're trying everything, you're trying very hard, pedal to the metal, but you're looking out the window going, I'm not moving, I must need to push harder. But if you had full perspective, you went, oh, I'm spinning my wheels, what I actually need to do is take my foot off the pedal, slow it down. That feels very counterintuitive. Slow it down, let the wheel get a grip on the road, so I can start moving. And now I'm in a groove, and I have some momentum. Very counterintuitive, which is why most people will not regulate on their own, because you're not going to slow down to get more done, like that makes no sense, but I think that analogy can really help.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yes, I love that. The rubber to the road, so again, essentially you are still moving, but you're slowing it down with these micro actions, these 1% actions to then feel more grounded, so you're not spinning your wheels 24 because

Unknown:

it really is. You give you work less hard and you move further, like it's so.. it doesn't make sense to that like dysregulated brain that equals frantic intensity with productivity, but the reality is, if you slow down, you'll actually go further.

Brooke Schnittman:

Totally, when we've realized our whole life that we have to try harder or mask or do all these things just to show up the same way as other people, we're used to that survival state of all or nothing, fight or flight. So, how do you teach someone that, hey, it's okay to slow down, it's okay, even though you've had 40 years of running on empty. I'm, I'm Jenna, and I'm going to tell you that if you slow down, you will be safe. Yes, it

Unknown:

is hard, which is why you spend some time with buy-in for people of like explaining what the brain is doing, what the nervous system is doing, how it's impeding your productivity. Why it's causing paralysis. I explain the frantic crash cycle. Like, yes, I get it. When you're in that intense pedal to the metal state, you do feel productive, right? That can feel good if you're not tipping over into paralysis, which also happens in that state. But even if you're not doing that, you're running around really frantically. But, man, doesn't that feel better than when you're crashed and can't move and can't decide what to eat, and it's like, so, but when we start seeing that cycle for what it is, which is a cycle, when I go into that frantic, I will crash, one feeds the other, it is a pendulum, it's not inevitable, I think a lot of people think, well, the crash is going to come, so better get everything done anyway. Yeah, better ever get everything done today, in case tomorrow I can't get off the couch, but that's causing the tomorrow not getting off the couch. So it's like you bring all these things to the awareness, people start going, whoa, having a lot of ahas, and then they can see the logic of, okay, I need to slow down, and we'll obviously talk about some specifics of what we can do, but I need to slow down in order to get out of this kind of roller coaster ride, because you know, slow and steady wins the race is a saying for a reason, us being in the middle ground, being more consistent and stable but slower is always going to get us farther than sprinting and crashing, just like the tortoise and the hare. There's many fables about this, because it's true. And so, when we realize, oh, I'm the hare, I keep sprinting and napping, sprinting and napping, sprinting and napping, and I'm losing, because that's not how I don't know if it's societal or if it's just the nature of being alive, but if you can be more consistent, even if you move slower, you are going to be more successful than if you're sprinting, but then not showing up for a week.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yes, I call it persistence and consistent, so you can show up at 10% 100% and that's still 100% And even if it's 10% right, so persist in action over time, and I think of the two ladders, so of course there's the one with a lot of rings, a lot of steps, right, not the one that the ADH deer is drawn to, then you have the other ladder where the rings are spread out and we're constantly trying to grab at it and sometimes we grab it and sometimes we fall and crash, and we start over, right? Or even worse, feel worse about ourselves, and then the shame kicks in. But to your point, doing those small, consistent actions over time, like the hair, will get you to the top of the ladder in persistent actions.

Unknown:

And why don't we do that? Well, a system in fight or flight wants fast, right? If we think you've got to think of yourself primarily, when I say, like, put your dysregulation goggles, is like, think of yourself as an animal, because you are. We like to think I'm human, I'm so evolved. No, we're just a bunch of scared wild animals, like trying to protect ourselves. And so, when we feel unsafe, when the system's in fight or flight, your body wants to move fast, it wants to rush, it's unwilling to take anything, take time. I get it all done. I need to get it done now. That is not our natural state. A lot of people think that's just how ADHD is. I'm in a rush, haha. I can't wait for someone to finish their sentence. That is not natural. That is not natural, even for the ADHD, or that is the system in fight or flight. So, when we start seeing that and slowing it down, it's like, oh, now I have access, and my brain is more understanding that that ladder with all the little steps is more effective than the big steps. So, of course, it's logical, right? We could say to somebody, hey, take little steps and be consistent, that'll get you there faster. Okay, but why aren't they doing that in the first place? Yeah, not because they're not smart and don't really aware of it, right? But that dysregulated nervous system will take over and will run the show, even when it makes no sense.

Brooke Schnittman:

Since you brought it back to evolution, and I don't know if this is something that you want to go to, but it was a thought that came up. How do you describe the difference between anxious attachment and ADHD when you have a dysregulated nervous system? Is this something you feel comfortable with?

Unknown:

Yeah, I have not. Attachment styles are not my specialty, but anxiety is dysregulation. It's just regular, it's a dysregulated nervous system, because that is our brain in hyper vigilance, trying to keep ourselves safe in things that are not happening, and making up, you know, stories, and hyper vigilance is the best word for it, that is dysregulation. So, when people come into my world and they say, well, I have ADHD and anxiety, even, and OCD, those are all dysregulation-related diagnoses. So we just do the same work for all of it. Let's get you out of fight or flight. Let's get your system aligned with reality, so that's going to mean if you're safe, you feel safe inside, you're present in the moment and not living in the future or the past, and we're here and we figure out, oh, I'm safe to be here mentally, physically, and feel safe to do that slow and steady wins the race thing,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah,

Unknown:

and so you're not just gonna, you know, be told, hey, this works better, do it, we have to actually retrain the nervous system to feel safe doing that, and the first stages of that are really uncomfortable, which is why it's hard to do this work on your totally alone.

Brooke Schnittman:

So, I think we have very similar thought processes. So, you call it a cycle, I call it a spiral. You talk about paralysis, I talk about overwhelm, underwhelm, and everything in between. And, of course, is emotional dysregulation in between. It, I'm curious, when you mentioned awareness, that was the beginning, and understanding a dysregulated nervous system. Can you walk us through your system and your some of your strategies that you help people become more aware of their dysregulated nervous system?

Unknown:

Yeah, absolutely. So, I teach regulation in three layers, and the way I do it is, I don't think necessarily for everybody, but it's a unique way, so people haven't connected with other strategies, like certain breathing exercises, or the real heavy somatic stuff, they might connect to this approach. So, the first level is typical somatic physical work, meaning I need to know when I'm physically dysregulated and interrupt that, so everything I teach has two steps: awareness and interruption. So, the first is being aware of when you are physically dysregulated, that is going to look like racing heart, tense muscles, physically rushing stomach, and knots, really any signs of anxiety, and then the mental signs - rumination, overwhelm, paralysis- all of those feelings. We want to start going, "Oh, I'm dysregulated. So, when you're running down the hall to a meeting, it's not, "Oh, I'm late, I'm in such a rush. I just have to know you are in fight or flight, you are dysregulated. So, we want to start building the awareness. Is in real time.

Brooke Schnittman:

Oh,

Unknown:

you know, I'm feeling really anxious. Oh, I'm just regulated. Whatever is happening, I'm just regulated. I'm just regulated. Okay, I'm seeing it. We're trying to bring it to the surface because it's so normalized at this point. That's just existence to us. So we want to build the awareness, and then we want to practice interrupting, meaning in the moment when I notice, oh, I'm running with my shoulders up to my ears down the hall, worrying about what I'm going to make for dinner tonight. I interrupt that state. So, only way to communicate with the nervous system is by physically changing how you're doing things. So, we would take a breath, drop the shoulders, slow down, and come back to the present, so maybe you know, shoot, you walk, you go, I'm walking down the hallway, like you're gonna feel like you sound really stupid, even in your own mind, but it's like

Brooke Schnittman:

externalizing it, right? Yeah,

Unknown:

but it's showing the body, hey, look, I could walk and relax and just be here, drop the hyper vigilance and just be present. Look, a bear didn't get me. I like to be really logical about it's like I'm communicating to my body that, look, I wouldn't do this if there was a bear chasing me. Okay, nervous system, so chill out. And we do that again and again and again and again and again and again to get that body really understanding. Oh, I'm safe. You cannot talk to your body. I do. I will get into all the mental piece of this, but just saying, 'Oh, there's.. we're safe, relax, is not going to do it. You have to act as if you're safe because you are, but you're acting as if you're not when you are tense, ruminating, rushing, and clenched all over. You are not acting like you're safe, so that's really the first step, and I do find that to be more helpful, not instead of, but if you're only going to do one thing, that is what I recommend, because some people will do, I do meditation every morning, that's really great, but if you do meditation for 10 minutes and then you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off all day, it's never gonna like interrupt it enough to actually communicate to your nervous system. You can turn that survival mode switch off. It is safe to have it function and like remain in the off position. Of course, it'll get triggered. We're just going to get dysregulated. We're humans, I still do, but I function from a regulated baseline, so we have to have that consistent interruption in order to actually change our state, not just cope, because, and we could do a little side note, because I do find a lot of regulation work is talked about with ADHD in a more like whack-a-mole approach, when you get dysregulated, do this thing to come back down, whereas I'm saying, let's retrain your system to not function in that state all the time, all for like the long run, for the rest of your life. So that's a bit of the difference. This is like a retraining of your whole brain, body, and behavior to like nip it in the bud, not have to whack a mole all the time, so that's the physical piece. The mental piece is our thoughts and beliefs. If your nervous system has been in a state of survival mode for decades, which I'm sure it has for everyone listening, it was for me. It has created belief systems and ways of thinking that are aligned with that, so your brain is functioning from a place of I'm not safe. I need to defend myself. I need to protect myself. I have to look for the worst case scenario. I have to look for danger, and your brain is trained in a dysregulated state. So, what we want to do again, awareness and interruption. We want to be aware of all the dysregulated thoughts we have, and this is a very rich area, so I'm not going to be able to get into all the, all the work around it, but at least an overview would be, what beliefs do I hold that are dysregulating me? The top ones I hear from ADHD ers, I'm behind, I need to catch up, there's not enough time, I have to finish my to-do list until I can rest, all those sorts of sorts of beliefs will keep you in a dysregulated state, because no sane person who believes I'm behind, I need to catch up, is going to slow down. You will not do it. So, for anybody who's like, oh, I'm going to try this slowing down thing, that's not the work, actually, because that's easy. The work is, whoa, why is it so uncomfortable? What beliefs and thoughts am I holding that make this feel unsafe? And how do I retrain my thinking to align with the fact that, hey, I can walk down this hall, I don't need to run all the time. And I'll give, like, a quick tip for how to start with that. Again, this, the thoughts and belief is like the richest part of the work I do with people, like multiple sessions, so it's not so it's not that simple, but I love the idea of like GPS thinking, so it might seem slightly robotic, but when you program your GPS to go somewhere, even if you go five miles in the wrong direction, it doesn't go year. So stupid, what a waste of time. Why are you going this way? You should have turned earlier. Why didn't you do this? It just goes turn left like it accepts where you are and make the right next move. So that's what we want to do with our thinking, instead of I should be further along. I can't believe I didn't do that yesterday. Why am I doing this? I should, you know, oh, I should get all this done before I lay down. Why am I stuck here? All this, what I call potential, all the shoulds and coulds and judgments and negative self-talk that dysregulates us, and we're fighting with reality. We want to align with reality as quickly as possible all the time. That's the practice, that interruption. Okay, here I am. The reality is here I am. What's the best next move, right? So, if we were GPS, here I am. Okay, do I turn right or left to get kind of back on track? Let's not fight with I shouldn't, shouldn't have, couldn't have gone this way.

Brooke Schnittman:

Here's where I am. Here we are, accepting where you are.

Unknown:

We're here. So now what? And so really simple way I like to have that as like a saying is like the reality is blank now what so if you're going I should have done that yesterday I can't believe I didn't get that started it's due tomorrow why aren't I the reality is I haven't started yet now what start it really grounds everything to go. Oh, here's the reality. Instead of exerting all this energy to fight with what

Brooke Schnittman:

is, yeah,

Unknown:

can I just be here and take the one next step? My God, it is. You are going to move so much faster if you can do that. You are going to feel a lot better. You're going to be triggering your nervous system a lot less, and that's going to help foster this like physical side that you're starting to work on.

Brooke Schnittman:

Do you feel when that happens, when we're so used to the shame and the limiting beliefs? In the beginning, at least, you need a pattern interrupt to become that, to be in that space of, okay, what is the next step? Because if your nervous system is on fire, and your amygdala is hijacked, like you are not going to think you're not going to have any executive functions, which

Unknown:

is why it's like everything, even even in the book, is like every chapter has a very simple takeaway, and it's like at the end of chapters, like what to do has like a little very succinct, because that, that can help if I know. Oh, I want to notice when I'm rushing and slow down, even when you're not totally with it, because your blood flows left your brain and you're in fight or flight. That's so much easier to remember than, like, I should try to be regulated and meditate and do this and that. So, keep it as simple as possible. Look out for one marker, right? One red flag. Oh, I'm running down the hall, that's my red flag. Okay, and have it like ready to go, like a, like you said, a pattern interrupter. It's like I kind of pre-scripted what I'm going to do. When I'm rushing, I'm going to stop. When I'm running, I'm going to walk. Maybe that's just what you work on at first, one thing at a time. Even that one thing at a time, that's one of my sayings, one of my mantras in there. Oh, I can only do one thing at a time.

Brooke Schnittman:

I know this is silly. One of my things, because I work from home and I live in Florida, is okay. I'm just going to go to the mailbox, because I know I need oxygen, I know I need sunlight, and I just need to be outside, away from screens, even if there's no mail in the mailbox, it's a reset. Like, okay, I don't feel stupid, but I'm just gonna go to the mailbox and come back, and that will be my interrupt, and my nervous system will calm down. Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah, cool. I do like that, and I will just add to people, because this is often what they do. Is I'm going to take a break to regulate, so that can be helpful, but that's not how we want to regulate. Typically, what I recommend is regulating during the thing you're already doing. So, if you're running to that meeting, don't like go to the bathroom to take a break before you go to the meeting, just walk to the meeting, right? It's interrupting, but continuing with the thing, so if you're writing emails like this, oh my gosh, I gotta get these down over with. That's a big sign, less regulation. It's like you're still writing the email, but Hello Joanne, how are you? It's like slow, continue with what you're doing, because if you leave all the time. I'm not saying don't take breaks, right? We need those sorts of things. We need fresh air, but if you only regulate by taking breaks, you will train your nervous system that work is dangerous, breaks are safe. And then, what the hell are you going to do? You're not going to be able to work right effectively. So, it's like really observing. It's not about what you're doing, it's how you're doing it. You can work. I work way harder now than when I was dysregulated, because it is not about doing less, it is not about retreating, it is not about take six months off work. I really highly don't recommend that. I've worked with many people on leave that go back to work and they fall exactly back into what they were doing, because you can only regulate around work while working, you. Can only regulate around parenting while with your kids, like you can't regulate on vacation, because that's just that's regulating through avoidance. Let me leave the thing that feels unsafe, and that calms me down. Well, of course, but now you're training the nervous system to leave that thing in order to feel okay.

Brooke Schnittman:

Okay, so here's a question.

Unknown:

Yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

when do you differentiate with a client of when something really isn't safe and when they need to regulate, or is it a mix of both?

Unknown:

Fight or flight is only useful in imminent life-threatening danger. So, like, if someone's chasing you, freaking run, go mad, like, get that blood flow into your limbs, don't be calm, lift that car off the baby. Right, we want that stuff pumping, we want the panic going, we want the heart racing, we want the tense muscles, we want the, you know, looking for danger when you're in danger. If you are not in physical life-threatening danger, fight or flight is only going to hurt. Not saying it won't be triggered, and not saying it won't be really hard in difficult phases of life, but I think a lot of times we go, oh yeah, but this is, you know, work is super crazy right now, it's tax season, and I'm in, I'm an accountant, so I'm gonna wait till after tax season to regulate, like that's not, that's one of the right beliefs that can keep us stuck, is like this later, later, later thing,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, but I mean, so you mentioned the six month vacation. There are a lot of people who do regulation and try all the strategies and still are not in the right environment, so they might not be in imminent danger, physical danger, but they might be in the wrong relationship, they might be in the wrong job. How do you, if someone is continuing to have this response. How do you help them differentiate between physical danger and okay, I know we're regulating, but maybe we, it is time for a shift.

Unknown:

Oh, totally. I would just say those are two totally different things. You could be regulated and have a job that is not right for you, right? You could. I used to, I was dysregulated, but I was a teacher for a year and a half. I know still that would not be the job for me, even though I'm very regulated. So, yeah, you're also not going to just put up with anything just because you're regulated, but if you're saying, you know, I have had so many people where, oh, getting a new job's the answer, and they're just dysregulated in the new job, so it's always going to probably be both. We need to get regulated to see what's going to change when I'm different, and then if it's like, oh, this still is not for me, great. Do your thing, do your thing in the beginning, like you're a grown-up, you get to do whatever you want, leave your job, go get a new one, go take a leave of absence. However, a leave of absence is not going to change how you work, so when you go back to work, you just got to know that you're going to have to learn how to do work differently.

Brooke Schnittman:

The

Unknown:

rest itself is not going to heal anything.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, so you mentioned the regulating and the awareness phase. What's next?

Unknown:

Yeah, so we have the interrupting the physical, we have the interrupting the thoughts and beliefs, and the last layer is the behavior. So, when we are dysregulated, the brain actually does not perceive nuance by design. So, when we're in fight or flight, we will see things as all or nothing on purpose, because if you're in the forest in danger, you don't want to go. How does this cave look? Well, it's could be safe. There's probably not a bear in there. Let me think about all the go

Brooke Schnittman:

run flexibility. It's

Unknown:

like, dangerous, good, bad. That's what we want to bring to. So, that's what we're doing now, right? All or nothing thinking. We see that with ADHD years, and we might think that's just how we are, but it's not. That is a symptom of being a fight or flight, so if you're the type of person where, hey, I'm going to do that work project when I can hammer the whole thing out at one time, I'm not going to open it before then. I either clean my whole house and wipe the baseboards, or I don't even pick my towel up off the floor. I'm either eating perfectly, or screw it, I'm eating everything in the house. If that's your rhythm and your behavior, we want to observe, oh, that's dysregulation, and we want to retrain the brain to find nuance again. That takes a bit of time, takes some awareness. So, again, always awareness and interruption. So, awareness, I'm in all or nothing thinking with this. When you start to realize, you go, 'Oh my god, it's with everything. I either reply to every text I have, or I don't even open them.

Brooke Schnittman:

Nothing either,

Unknown:

right? And that's debilitating, because again, slow and steady wins the race. That is not slow and steady, that's frantic or nothing, right? It mimics that those extremes that we're trying to ease. We're trying to find more balance in the middle, so you want to be aware. Oh, I'm an all or nothing thinking, say with these text messages. I know it's a big struggle for BDHDRs. Okay, how can I practice flexible thinking? And to practice it, you got to do the thing that's going to be uncomfortable, do the work

Brooke Schnittman:

right, so

Unknown:

we're. Used to either going, okay, I either sit down and answer all of them, or I don't even open my text messages. That's what you're used to. That's what your system is thinking is keeping you safe. You've trained no fault of our own. This was not a conscious choice, but we've trained the nervous system to believe that doing things in an all or nothing way is what's keeping us alive. We would be fine doing it another way, we just haven't done that yet. So, for the text messages, we might want to look at, you know, how can I chip away? So, oh well, I could just answer one. You're allowed to do that, you don't have to answer them all. So, that would be challenging the all or nothing thinking. Going, okay, I'm going to chip away, I'm going to answer one of the texts. Then we have consciously cutting corners, that's perfectionism. But do I think every text I send has to be this like beautiful thought out paragraph answering every question they've ever had, showing how kind and generous I am, or can I just give it a thumbs up? Like, do I have that flexibility? So that's so chipping away would be little bits at a time, instead of all at once or nothing. Consciously cutting corners is challenging that perfectionism. It doesn't have to be perfect or nothing, it could be something in between. And then prioritizing action, this is for the person that gets stuck in the planning and the thinking, and I'll plan this perfectly, I'll make this really efficient, but then they never do it like that, is all or nothing thinking as well, and we want to challenge that by prioritizing action, meaning the most important thing is that I do something, not what I do, not that I do it in the right order, not even that I do it efficiently. I had someone in one of my groups, she was sharing, oh my god, yesterday I had 20 post-it notes of all the tasks I wanted to get done, I was arranging them for two hours, and we all laughed because we got it.

Brooke Schnittman:

That's giving her more dopamine, right? That's more exciting, the arrangement than the doing.

Unknown:

I don't even bring dopamine. I'd say that's soothing your dysregulation. That is perfectionism. That is being stuck in the potential, the planning, and the thinking, the hyper vigilance. It, when I take action, it has to be efficient, it has to be worth it, because we feel so behind. So, when I do get moving, it better be frickin' fast and efficient, and go, go, go, go, go. I think it's more out of anxiety and dysregulation than it is dopamine, but I understand dopamine is part of the equation. But in that instance, had she had the tool of, like, okay, I'm really working on prioritizing action. You might go, let me just pick a Post-it and do it, and doing it's gonna, it's gonna be uncomfortable, but then this is how all this work is just like a big ball of yarn where I'm tangling. When, when you pick that Post-it, you go, okay, take the garbage out, that's the first thing I'm going to do what stops you from just doing it. Is it the belief that I have to do things efficiently, and that could potentially be inefficient? What is coming up for you? There's going to be some sort of dysregulating thought or belief that prevents you just from doing the thing that makes the most sense. And this is where it kind of all layers on each other, and we have to really dig in there and go, what is holding us back from doing the regulated productive thing, and it will be some sort of dysregulating belief and thought almost under everything.

Brooke Schnittman:

So, when picking a thing after planning for two hours, or trying to cut down the planning for two hours, right, because we know, right, it could be many different reasons why it could be perfectionism, it'd be dopamine, it could be regulation. Then everything is of equal importance to us. So we pick the thing, we break it down to the smallest step to like create action of some sort. But where is the accountability? Does it come externally first? Does it come internally? Like, how do you. what is the thing that gets the person going? Is it the why behind it? Can you explain

Unknown:

get going, as in a task, or get going with regulation work? Like, what specific? So you

Brooke Schnittman:

got the person, the person's regulated now, but they still have, like, so a dysregulation is coming up for this person in your group, so she was perfecting the 20 things with Post-Its. Now she picked a thing, but what makes her go? What makes her ADHD initiate? Just removing the outcome from it, removing the perfectionism to it.

Unknown:

I find when, like, when we are working on regulation, we are working on getting out of the hyper vigilance, we are working on slowing down, we are working on getting out of that state where you need all this motivation, like to walk to go take the garbage out is really actually a very calm, relaxed thing, and when we can land that of, like, oh, take the garbage out. Okay, there's gonna be a part of you that's like, but I got to do it all, and got to do it fast. So, when you do this work, we start slow, we add one thing at a time, because there's a lot to work on it once you can, but if this person's already working on, you know, taking things a bit slower, one thing at a. Time, there's no rush observing your thoughts and beliefs that are keeping you stuck. It's kind of, we want to get into a life where I don't need motivation, I simply decide my conscious mind is getting more control back. So, instead of the nervous system and subconscious running the show and needing like jolts of dopamine and all this intensity, I've brought it back into the conscious mind because I'm more regulated, so I'm not feeling so I need the power in my nervous system because I'm feeling unsafe and I'm trying to save your life, that's starting to loosen, so you can go, I'm deciding to go take the garbage out right now, there will be moments of discomfort for sure, a thought might come up, of like, but it would be more efficient to do this first, and the conscious mind would go,"No, no, no, I'm not falling for that, I'm going to take the garbage out, and we would slow that's where you

Brooke Schnittman:

start talking to yourself,

Unknown:

let it take as long as it's going to take, but it's really layering this awareness of the physical piece, the thoughts and beliefs, and the behavior, and having a really intimate relationship with yourself, and what is dysregulation? What is ADHD? What is your conscious mind? And it starts, it starts to loosen up. I find,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, what I'm hearing is if they notice their dysregulation, if they regulate, then choices will become easier to them, because their conscious mind will allow to slow down. However, how do you differentiate between, okay, now I'm regulated, but hey, I still have ADHD, that's very real, and task initiation is still hard. Like, how do you work with the person to get going?

Unknown:

Yeah, I have, and I get it. I'm on, I'm on the outskirts. Okay, I'm on the fringes. I understand. So, not everyone has to agree with me. I, as someone who was drowning, debilitated, I got my diagnosis at 32 because I was like, I cannot live this way, like I'm sure I'm gonna die here. I'm not on medication, and that is not a flex, that is just simply a fact. I've only done regulation work. I am so thriving, it's like I can't even explain the difference. It's like I'm a different human. I do have a wrist watch, I get it, we can lose track of time. I have a wrist watch, analog, no smart stuff. And I highly recommend analog for regulation.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yep,

Unknown:

I have a paper calendar. I use.. oh my god, my

Brooke Schnittman:

best. I

Unknown:

have my little pencil case with my white out, that's the tools I use. I have not had paralysis for two years. I used to live in paralysis. I've been an entrepreneur for 10 years, so I've sat on that couch day in and day out, unable to get myself to do anything, but I also couldn't work for anybody else. I was just debilitated. I didn't have any success in seven years of entrepreneurship. My loving husband was supporting me along the way. I'm like, I'm gonna do it, I swear it'll work. It was only when I started doing this work, and it does not happen overnight. It's not, oh, I take the deep breath, and I'm regulated. You are not going to be regulated for a while. You gotta keep it, and you know this, but just to communicate with people listening, like you're.. we are working on this, as like this is the thing I am doing to support myself, nothing else. I'm not introducing new tips, tricks, and hacks. I am simply trying to get myself regulated, so that's going to be the most bang from your buck. I have found my symptoms, I think, have gone down 85% I hear clients say that too, 75 You know, these are obviously subjective numbers, but they're saying I'm dealing with 25% of what I was with dealing with before this, I do not think we know what ADHD is, because we have conflated an ADHD brain in fight or flight and called it ADHD. I'm definitely different, I'm crooky, I still think things in, I still think in a really unique way. My two, I would say my two real still struggles, which I would not write home about at this point, like it's not a problem compared to what I was doing before. Attention to detail still really tough. I forget a lot of little things. I will read an email and actually like miss points. Grocery store very hard for me. I don't know if it's just like so many little things I can't compute visually, like where, like where on the sign is there? So many signs, so attention to detail still very present, no matter how regulated I get. And working memory, like my husband asked me to look something on for my something up on my phone, and I like detour at all, I forgot he even asked me. Like, those are the two symptoms I would say are still quite prominent, and a lot of the positives of ADHD, I still see my ability to make connections, you know, think in a unique way, task initiation no longer a problem, paralysis no longer present, like there's big, and I'm not saying that to make time

Brooke Schnittman:

out for a second time out, okay, let's back. It up, yes, there's a spectrum of ADHD for those of you who are listening, you all know that, and some people do thrive off of medication. I'm very holistic in the fact that, like, look, medications not for everyone, but it is for a lot of people, and I 100% agree with you, Jenna, that we do need to regulate our nervous system, because without that, no hacks or tools are going to work. 100% you have figured out an environment for yourself, right? You are not a teacher anymore, you are working for yourself, which we know, even though we need systems and structure entrepreneurship is definitely an effective strategy for many ADHD years who can't work for other people, right, to create their own schedules. So, for the person who doesn't have the freedom of creating the environment that you've created for yourself and that I've created for myself. Are you saying that just by coming and regulating the nervous system that they too will likely 85% of the time or 75% of the time be able to task initiate and do the executive okay?

Unknown:

Because I was an entrepreneur for seven years, just regulated, and trust me, it was not pretty. Is not about the environment,

Brooke Schnittman:

fascinating.

Unknown:

So, yes, teaching would be worse for me. Teaching would be worse for me than entrepreneurship, but entrepreneurship dysregulated. I made no money, I was just like paying for my kids' daycare. I was on and off, I would post, and then I wouldn't for six months, because I was so overwhelmed. I am nowhere near burnout, nowhere near. I'm not even walking in the direction of it. I have, like, my second book deal happening, like, a month after my first book is out. I have

Brooke Schnittman:

congratulations, you know.

Unknown:

And this is not a flex, this is what I'm saying. I could never have done an ounce of any of this until I got out of fight or flight, I was truly.. I can't, I cannot say it any way other than drowning for years, years, years, years, and so.. and I'm hoping this is a glimmer of hope for people, of like even when you're struggling, is like it can get so much better, but also I do think people think regulation is like deep breathing and meditation, it's so much more than that. If you, especially I think the thinking, the thoughts, and the beliefs is a huge part of it. The way we think has to be added onto the nervous system work, that somatic work, in order to regulate in the way I'm talking about, which is, I function, I wake up in the morning in fight or flight, that's how it used to be, and now I wake up in a regulated state, that is the kind of regulation I'm talking about, not, oh, I get very dysregulated, and then I give myself breaks to kind of come back down, and then I get dysregulated, I'm not talking about whack-a-mole regulation, I don't think that's gonna help the symptoms as much true, like long term. I'm going to work out this and give it time. That's very hard, I know. When we're dysregulated, that I do believe is life changing. I think it lowers our symptoms greatly. It increases executive functioning, it a high degree, and get this does not mean everyone needs to agree with me. I do believe ADHD paralysis is freeze paralysis, but do you think ADHD is a dysregulation problem? Period. I think dysregulate, I think ADHD is a brain difference. I think people assume it's a dysregulation problem, because ADHD years are in fight or flight. I think those are, I think, dysregulation and ADHD are separate things, but I know the school, another school of thought is ADHD were inherently inevitably dysregulated. I have not seen that to be the case. I've worked with over 1000 people with this approach. People two weeks in, we'll be like, I have never felt like this. I have never, like, I've never been able to make a cut this kind of change. And, of course, it does not happen overnight, but you can see little glimmers quickly, and it builds, and it builds, and it builds, and it builds over time. So, I think there really is a conversation about, we need a lot more research of ADC brains that have gotten out of fight or flight, study those. I don't think we've studied one, because there's very few out there.

Brooke Schnittman:

So, tell me, with the 1000s of clients that you've worked with, what does a regulated ADHD life actually look like?

Unknown:

Everyone's life is obviously different, but a couple things I will share is we get out of that fight or flight crash cycle, so instead of being I'm either or flat on the couch. This is my clinical sound for regulation. This, we're living our life, and like, I wake up, I get ready, oh, getting my breakfast. Okay, I'm. Off to work, instead of like, how am I going to handle the day? And, oh my gosh, there's so much to do with that. That is like the change from this intensity to like real grounding, a real strong relationship with reality. It's like time and space are linear. I can only do one thing at a time, and it is safe to just be present in the task at hand, and I am just moseying my way in an intentional and actionable way. We don't have to be like ditzy or like not focused, but I'm just, you know, and this nice cadence, walking through life, I'm at peace with the idea that the to-do list will never end. I understand that each day requires tasks and I'm calm and I'm that is the difference is really this landing in reality, which I talk with clients, is like that's what we got to get really, really good at is having a very strong relationship with reality, because a lot of times we're fighting with reality and that causes so much dysregulation, like I should have done this, and I should have done that, and negative self-talk, and all of that, trying to do everything at once, you know, seeing the brick wall instead of a brick path, which is one of the visualizations in the book, but it can look like, oh my god, how I see it is true transformation happens when it feels like nothing's happening, and then one day you look up and you go, oh my god, that

Brooke Schnittman:

happens.

Unknown:

I just woke up and it's a Saturday, and I got up and I was just puttering around, and I did a few tasks, and now I'm having a coffee. What, that's never happened before. That is true transformation when you don't even see it happening. Yeah, and that's so exciting.

Brooke Schnittman:

It reminds me of the simple example, not so simple, but of working out, working your muscles exactly, and you're like, I don't have any muscles, they're not growing, they're not breaking down, and then all of a sudden, when one day you feel really strong,

Unknown:

totally. For our kids, right, the days are long, the years are short. It's like, oh yeah, vlog. And then all of a sudden the other day I had to take a picture of my son because he was laying on the couch reading with his feet like up over, he's only seven, his feet were like up over the arm. How would you get so tall? It's like, oh my god, you're huge, but it's like you seem so tiny. And then all of a sudden your kid is gigantic. Well, that's how regulation feels. So, this is why the buy-in is so important. It's like I'm understanding it's going to take time. I feel safe with this taking time. It's okay for my life to not be overhauled by Monday. There's no rush, and all of that's part of the regulation work itself. How you approach regulation work is the work itself. Yes, I understand. We want everything fixed by tomorrow, because we're in survival mode. It feels like it's desperate, but that's not us, that's the nervous system, feeling like you're going to die. And I get it, it's intense, and that's why we got to keep the messaging coming, of like, oh, you know, the time is going to pass anyway. In six months, you can just keep being dysregulated, or you could be feeling much better and being much more regulated. The time is going to pass anyways. And these types of things is like this self-talk, and really like taking in this idea of, oh, it's safe to work at this slowly, and to keep at it, and even if things aren't like wildly changing in the first week, that's okay. Let's keep going. So, I get it. This is so multifaceted. This work, it does not happen overnight. It is not as simple, you know, as even we're talking about it here. But I really, really have seen that it is the thing. I do believe it's where ADHD fields going to go eventually. I would love when someone gets a diagnosis. Go, okay. So, step one, let's get you out of fight or flight, because there's no point doing anything else otherwise. I

Brooke Schnittman:

agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, listen, I've asked you a bunch of challenging questions, so I appreciate you being regulated to answer them today. You're an example of that, and I would be remiss to not show you this book. It's awesome, it's hard to cover, and it's colorful for all of my ADHD friends there. So, Jenna, where can people find you? Where can people find your book, The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation?

Unknown:

Yeah, the book is wherever books are sold, and you can find me at Jenna free.com I have a podcast called ADHD with Jenna Free and ADHD regulation groups, where I walk people through this work. Yay!

Brooke Schnittman:

Thank you for being on Successful with ADHD.

Unknown:

Thank you so much.

Brooke Schnittman:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at Coaching with brooke.com and all social media platforms at Coaching with Brooke. And remember, it's Brooke with any. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.

Unknown:

Bye.

Head Shot

Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC

Host