Adult ADHD Friendship Struggles Explained with Caroline Maguire

Ever feel like friendships are way harder than they should be? In this conversation, I sit down with ADHD coach, educator, and author Caroline Maguire to unpack why so many neurodivergent adults struggle with connection—and what’s actually going on beneath the surface. We explore the hidden patterns that keep us stuck, from people-pleasing to rejection sensitivity, and why “just be yourself” isn’t always that simple.

Caroline shares powerful insights from her new book on friendship skills for neurodivergent adults, helping us rethink what authentic connection really looks like. If you’ve ever questioned your relationships, felt like “too much,” or wondered why friendships don’t stick, this episode will open your eyes—and give you hope for building connections that truly feel good.

Episode Timeline Highlights

[0:00] - The people-pleasing trap and why it sabotages authentic friendships

[2:17] - Masking, confidence issues, and the cost of trying to fit in

[5:20] - What actually fills your “social cup” (and why most advice gets it wrong)

[8:23] - The impulsive friendship cycle and dopamine-driven connections

[14:12] - What neurodivergent kids experience socially—and how it carries into adulthood

[19:25] - Why ADHDers are more likely to be bullied and excluded

[22:58] - How unhealthy friendship patterns continue into adult life

[28:32] - Practical tools: autopilot friendships, body doubling, and social systems

[35:33] - The difference between acquaintances, emerging friends, and real friendships

[41:19] - Rejection sensitivity, emotional flooding, and how to interrupt the spiral

[45:52] - What it really means when someone says “you’re too sensitive”

[49:49] - The ultimate friendship litmus test: how you feel after spending time together

Links & Resources

Caroline Maguire, M.Ed., ACCG, PCC, is an internationally recognized expert in ADHD, social-emotional learning (SEL), and relationship development. She’s the author of Why Will No One Play with Me? and Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults (April 2026), focused on building authentic connections.

A coach, educator, and speaker, Caroline developed a widely used SEL methodology to support emotional regulation, self-awareness, and social confidence. She also hosts The ADHD Social Playbook podcast.

As a neurodivergent individual with ADHD, dyslexia, and learning differences, she brings both lived experience and professional expertise to her work.

Her work has been featured in ADDitude, WebMD, and TODAY Parenting. She’s also a TEDx speaker and keynote presenter at the International Conference on ADHD.

Instagram/Linkedin @authorcarolinem

Are you 18 or older with ADHD? Please help us collect data on adults with ADHD and bullying. In this less than 1-minute survey, you will also get $5 off of our store as a thank you > Bullying and ADHD https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScOsxgorpei-2tzFEk-USZSXe9xETzbZIHQ4KM7P2YwG6x-tw/viewform?pli=1

Thank you for tuning into "SuccessFULL with ADHD." If this episode has im

🚨Calling all aspiring ADHD coaches ▶️ https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com/coach-certification-and-training

Help your clients break free from paralysis and better manage their life with 3C Activation® coach training!

💥Gain a proven process for ADHD coaching

💥Earn 38 ICF Credits and 25.5 PAAC CCE’s

💥Learn the latest neuroscience to boost your practice

💥Qualify to be listed under ACO Directory

Learn more ▶️ https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com/coach-certification-and-training

Transcript

Caroline Maguire: 0:00

I feel like there's also this element of I think that if I people please in the beginning and I like attract the person, that then eventually the relationship will open up, or like it will shift, and it will change and listen. I want everyone to know this is not me saying, Oh, you're wrong. Shame on you, or shade or anything I get. Why you do it? Because I've done it. But the problem is the relationship, it often doesn't really get to that point because the person has sort of bought a version of ourselves that we really aren't

Brooke Schnittman: 0:38

welcome to successful with. ADHD. I'm Brooke schnittman, let's get started. My guest today is Caroline McGuire, and she is an ADHD coach educator and the author of a new book, friendship skills for neurodivergent adults, which explores how ADHD and neurodivergent brains experience friendships differently, and what actually helps people build authentic connections. She's also the author of the best selling book, why will no one play with me, which helps parents and educators teach kids social skills in a way that actually works for neurodivergent brains. Carolyn, I spent more than two decades helping ADHD and autistic individuals understand social dynamics, navigate relationships and build friendships that feel natural instead of exhausting. We know how that can be, and something I appreciate about her work is that she doesn't approach social skills from a place of fixing neurodivergent people. Instead, she focuses on helping people understand their brain and build connections in ways that work for them. Thank you for being here, Carolyn.

Caroline Maguire: 1:50

I am so happy, and I love that you know that about me, because that is really my perspective. Like, I don't think we need to be fixed, and I think that we were told we needed to be fixed as children. I'm just like, right off the bat, yeah, right out the gate. And I think that it's part of our confidence issue. Like, I think it's a huge part of our confidence issue. And I know that those people were well meaning, but it really doesn't help us as adults.

Brooke Schnittman: 2:17

Yeah, we hear enough negative messages already so and then when we try to fit into the neurotypical box, we are actually not only masking but stressing ourselves out, becoming more anxious and depressed and never going to be able to truly be our authentic selves in an environment. So we're always going to feel terrible about ourselves if we pretend to be someone we're not.

Caroline Maguire: 2:41

Yeah, we are. And I have a new analogy I came up with the other day. Okay, so, like, see if this makes sense, if we're trying to fit in, we're, like, trying to make cornbread. We have the cornbread ingredients, but we're expecting to get cookies. Like, we don't have the right ingredients. We have the ingredients of like, Oh, I'll say that I like anything you like. Then we end up like socializing in a way that's so not worth it. It's miserable for us. It just we aren't even showing the person what we like. So, and I'm not putting shade on us. I know why we do this. We feel desperate to make friends, so we do it, but like then we don't find that authentic connection, and that's what we want. We don't want like fake friendships. We don't like fake things. You know, we like real things. Yeah, we like real

Brooke Schnittman: 3:31

things, you're right. And because of our working memory issues, too, it can be hard to remember that. And I know you talk about this in your book too, so I'm gonna stop in just a second, but we can forget the uncomfortable experiences of pretending to be someone who we're not, and then, because of our justice sensitivity, after some time, whether it be a year or two, we come back and we're resentful of the person and they don't even know what They did. It's because we were in our authentic selves.

Caroline Maguire: 4:03

I'm glad. It's so glad we're getting this on recording, because, yes, that is absolutely what happens. I have not really put it into words like that, but yeah, like, we're then in sense that the person doesn't know us, like, why would they think that I would want strawberry ice cream? Well, because two years ago, when they said, I like strawberry ice cream, we said, Yeah, me too. I love it.

Brooke Schnittman: 4:25

Well, yeah, that's fine. Your needs are more important than my needs, right? Like, I'll

Caroline Maguire: 4:28

go to a place that only has strawberry ice cream. That's fine, you know, like, but we forget, or, or it just seems like it's been so much time. Why haven't they realized? Yes, you

Brooke Schnittman: 4:40

know, yes, they should know me. They should I've exposed myself. I find that this has happened in my closest relationships over time. And you know, we are constantly evolving as neurodivergent humans and educators, right? We've talked on your podcast. How we're not perfect. We're a work in progress, but it is something to just think about and go back and reflect on, because when we don't reflect, then we're constantly stuck in the tunnel vision of just doing the next thing, the next thing and the next thing as an ADHD human,

Caroline Maguire: 5:20

yeah, I mean completely, and that's why I have so many exercises in the book about reflecting, like, what fills your social cup, right? Not what fills my social cup, not what fills the parents who raised you Who told you to be a certain way. What do you want? And it might be that you don't, you don't need millions of friends, right? It might be that you do something virtual once a week and then something in person once a week. It's it. It's been sort of forced upon us. I think extroversion, like, I think the way we were told to socialize was very much an extroverted perspective versus, well, some of us don't need that. Like my husband is an extreme extrovert. I've been saying this everywhere. He's probably gonna be, like, stop talking about me, but like he sincerely needs to be out there with so many people. I really feel like he's thrives that way, but not all of us do. And I feel like the way we were told to mask and the way we were conditioned, we now need to, as adults like step back. Think about who our people are. And I have tons of exercises in the book for this. Think about what fills our social cup, and then think about another ingredient that it fits into your wheelhouse, Brooke, because you're doing the bullying survey, which is, do these people treat us well? And I don't think we do that. I think we feel like, Oh, I can't really pay attention to those red flags, because I have to take anything I can get, yep,

Brooke Schnittman: 6:51

yep, and then back to our point of never truly being fulfilled, because you become resentful and angry, and then exit situations, and then you start all over, and then you feel like you're the problem because you can't keep a

Caroline Maguire: 7:06

relationship Absolutely. And I think there's also this misnomer, and I feel like we've talked about this before, so I don't mean to repeat myself, but I am becoming my dad, where I repeat the same stories again, but like I feel like there's also this element of, you know, I think that if I people please in the beginning and I like attract the person, that then eventually the relationship will open up, or like it will shift, and it will change. And listen, I want everyone to know this is not me saying, Oh, you're wrong. Shame on you, or shade or anything I get why you do it, because I've done it right. But the problem is the relationship never it often doesn't really get to that point, because the person has sort of bought a version of ourselves that we really aren't, you know, and so I really think that pre work of like, who are your people? What do you want? I feel like we deserve it, even though I know so many of you are cynical, and you're listening to this while you drive or something, and you're like, well, she's bananas. I can't do that, but I do think if we invest in that, like we feel better about our relationships.

Brooke Schnittman: 8:23

We so do the amount of dates I used to go on as a single person. I think I mentioned I went on like eight dates, one time in a day, and I was the best first date ever. And then when it came to second date, the onion peel came off more and more, and we just waste our time. We waste other person's time. And it wasn't until I truly knew myself that I was able to understand who I wanted to be around as well. And then you could easily be fooled too along the way, when you meet new people, right? And forget that, like, ooh, they remind me of this person until you you know, experience the person. And that's okay, too, right? It's okay, right?

Caroline Maguire: 9:09

That's the whole point. And just like dating, and since there's such poultry research on adults and neurodivergent adults, especially like I did go to the dating world, I even met with some matchmakers and met with them about like advice they give for dating, and a lot of that advice is, you're getting to know someone, and you're it does take time, because they have their mask too, and so it does take time. And therefore, when you're going through, you know, the process I recommend is that you you join some activities that are high interest, highly interactive. You meet multiple people, so you have multiple irons in the fire. So if somebody doesn't work out, you're not like I'm devastated. I just spent six months on that person, right? But that you are, you are telling and I think we know that dating takes time. We know that. Many, many people will fight me on some of this stuff, but then tell me, like, in their dating life, like what they did. And so I'm always, like, sort of raising this to my clients. Like, wait a minute, you just told me a story about how, like, it takes eight dates to get to know someone, really, but doesn't it take eight friendship interactions to really go Yeah. Like, now I know this person and I know their patterns, because trust is track record, right? So trust is me watching what someone does. Like I also would encourage people, how do they treat waitresses? How do they treat other people in your group? Like, I have to tell you a friendship deal breaker for me is that I was a waitress, like, you have to be nice to waitresses. Like, I can't. Do not snap at the Starbucks barista and think we're having, like, a second friendship date, like we're not, like, it's just not okay. But I think, like, pay attention. And I know this is, like, easier said than done, pay attention to that, because they should share your values, right, right, right?

Brooke Schnittman: 11:03

And I think the more work we do and being intentional and reflective, it's easier, because we might get so ingrained in the friendship that we think there's something wrong with us when we say, oh, you know, like, I know they don't have my values. I know they you know, they're not treating the barista right. But maybe, maybe I'm misperceiving this. And that's, I think, where we need to really understand ourselves and make sure that we are staying true to that in the end. And feel like feeling comfortable with uncomfortable being okay, not carrying on with this friendship, yeah.

Caroline Maguire: 11:38

And I think, like there's this discomfort piece, and we've had such discomfort with friendship that we don't like the discomfort, please. So yes, for everyone driving your car, listening to the cynically going like Caroline wants me to be uncomfortable. I've already been uncomfortable for 45 years. I do get that. But like I do think that there's, you know, this impulsive friendship cycle, and I talk about this in the book, and I'm sure, Brooke, you've never done this, but I will admit that I've done this where you it's almost like falling in love, like there's this spark. You find

Brooke Schnittman: 12:14

somebody who in connection, they're my person, yes?

Caroline Maguire: 12:18

And then you hyper focus on them, right? They become your everything, right? And by the way, PS, you wouldn't. Maybe do this with dating. Maybe you would. But a lot of my clients will tell me, like, I wouldn't do this with dating, but I'm like, But why I do it with friendship? You rush in, you you are, like, embedded with them. You are all in and then as the relationship unfolds, you realize, oh, they're kind of mean. They don't treat me that well. Like all that stuff comes up. And so I talk in the book about, like, Are you one of these people with the impulsive friendship cycle completely am like, I have broken that cycle. But early Caroline like, 90s Caroline. That was my complete pattern. Where were you in the 90s? Mom was like a trend, exactly.

Brooke Schnittman: 13:11

But you have a good 30 years of practicing this. This is awesome,

Caroline Maguire: 13:15

but, like, you fall into that cycle, and I get why? Because it's a dopamine rush. Yeah, it's a dopamine rush.

Brooke Schnittman: 13:23

It is, it is. So let's get into it. Many ADHD adults say they felt different growing up, right? But couldn't explain why. And again, this is why I love you talking about adults in this group in this book, because there really is nothing out there like it for neurodivergent adults, there's lots. I mean, you wrote the childhood friendship. Why will no one play with me? Book, which is great, but then you become a neurodivergent adult, and then what? Right? Like dynamic shift and where's What do you do there? So when you look back, what do you think was actually happening socially for neurodivergent kids? Let's start there, and then we can move into adulthood. If you don't

Caroline Maguire: 14:12

mind, no, not at all. I think often we didn't have a diagnosis. You Didn't Know your brain, you couldn't really figure out other people. And there's some things like, we might be more sensitive, right? So we would expect you to be as sensitive, you know, I expect you had to have the emotional register that I have, but you don't, right? Other people don't, or you're not reading social cues. You might be a little immature, right? So you know you're doing, you know nine year old humor, when 12 year olds right?

Brooke Schnittman: 14:46

That 30% delay, yep,

Caroline Maguire: 14:48

yep, that 30% delay. And then this cycle begins where you kind of don't have any people, maybe of one or two, you start to. Take less, because you're literally being told by the adults in your life to take less, take whatever you can get, and that's not your fault. Like I think this sort of pre diagnosis, post diagnosis thing is so important, because so many adults are getting diagnosed in later in life, and so all the stuff before diagnosis, when you were a kid, to me, you didn't know your brain. You didn't even know you were impulsive. I mean, I don't know about you, you're, you're, you're younger than I am, but I don't think I ever heard that word like I don't think the adults in my life ever said, Caroline, you're rushing into things, you're super impulsive, right? Those weren't even words that I knew. So this cycle begins you you either keep trying or you start to opt out. I start to say, I'm not good at Friendship. Your self talk plummets, right? We're so you're criticized too. So that adds to this beautiful mix, and then it just is hard, and you're not sure why it's hard. And so one of the things I talk about in the book is I think there's a myth. And I think the myth is that friendship should be easy, and that by adulthood, you should have these skills. But I don't think we do have those skills, because I don't think we knew our brains, and I don't think, I think we needed to be taught those skills. And listen, I think this is true of some typical adults too. It's just, I think then the neuro diversity, the executive function, all of those pieces just add a layer for us that makes it, I think more obvious to be honest, yeah, yeah.

Brooke Schnittman: 16:44

And then you become socially stunted because you're ostracized very often practicing, right? Yeah, you're not exactly

Caroline Maguire: 16:50

hanging out with people, right, right?

Brooke Schnittman: 16:52

So how do you learn?

Caroline Maguire: 16:55

How do you learn? And also, how do you have the ingredient that no one talks about confidence, like the piece that I think we don't talk about as a society, and by that, I mean the media, is that it takes confidence, yeah, and so, like, that's one thing I talk about in the book, is like some people are going to read this book, and they're going to just read it, and that's their step forward. And that is amazing to be brave enough to do that. Some people are going to do my exercise, which is like one thing you can try today, and that's their step forward. But this does take time and confidence, and I I totally

Brooke Schnittman: 17:34

know how much time well we need absolutes,

Caroline Maguire: 17:38

Caroline, I think some people say it takes 60 hours to make a friend. Wow, you know, right? Some people say 11 interactions, right? And I know, like, there's people again, like, that's

Brooke Schnittman: 17:53

like marketing, 11 interactions.

Caroline Maguire: 17:55

Get out of town Caroline. But the thing is, here's my sales pitch, you would go on 11 dates before you married someone, wouldn't you, right? So aren't you embedded with your friends, right? Yeah, I mean, and also we have to remember the other person has to be willing so and forget if you're even with neurodivergent people, a lot of neurodivergent people have been burned. So they're gonna want to get to know you. They're gonna have multiple interactions before they want to call you a friend, right? Unless they're also in the impulsive friendship cycle, right? But, like, I don't think it's just typical people. I think it takes time to get to know people and to build those shared experiences. So yeah, I think it all, it all fits back into like we didn't have those social opportunities. So now we're starting a new and there is a path forward, and it starts with us sort of saying, I didn't know. I couldn't have known. I didn't know my brain. Yeah, yeah. Ah.

Brooke Schnittman: 19:03

Yeah, a huge number of ADHD adults, you brought up the bullying survey that I'm doing report being bullied or socially excluded growing up. Why do you think neurodivergent kids often become targets in social environments? And I know you also mentioned yourself being bullied when you were younger.

Caroline Maguire: 19:25

Yeah, I was bullied really badly, like it was very physical, it was very emotional, and I was kind of trapped in that vortex for a long time. And so I'm very sympathetic to that. And the reason I think we're bullied is there's actually studies that show that kids who draw attention like they do behaviors that draw attention or are irritating to other people are more likely to be bullied so and I've just found this to be true, and I think also. Um, if we are, you know, older and have matured in the 80s and 90s, there was a culture around, you know, it was like people were allowed to make fun of you if you couldn't read aloud at the board. Like people, there was a lot of, like, sort of complicity. Like, I look back and I think, Why did no adult in the room say that's enough, right? So okay, and for me, I'm terrible at sports. I mean terrible. And so we didn't know about dyspraxia and dyscalculia and all these things. So I just I couldn't catch a ball. And in the 80s, like sports was it? You had to be good at sports in order to like, be popular, etc. So I think there were a lot of reasons why this came up. And I think the other thing is, some of us just don't read social cues. Don't really get how a social work world works. We're a little too blunt, right? We have the impulsive behaviors. Maybe we aren't completely tuned in, and then people expect us to remember stuff, and we don't. So I think that we become, we became targets for that reason, and it's very different. Bullying is very different. Now. It's much more online. There's less physicality. It's covert. It's just as horrendous for kids, but I think it is very different, but I think we did attract and I don't think that the adults were as prone or conditioned to do anything back then.

Brooke Schnittman: 21:37

Yeah, I can go back and think about some teachers and coaches who didn't do anything, you're right, nothing. There was no social emotional learning. There was no obvious there was none of

Caroline Maguire: 21:50

that back then, no, none of that. And I went to a dinky little school, so there wasn't, like, a school psychologist. I didn't even think we had a nurse. Do you know what I mean? Like, I can't even know, like, I legit, it was like a dinky little school. I don't think that we had a nurse. And so I just think that that's part of it. I think that there is a degree to which we didn't also seem to understand the impact of it. But I really think it goes back to the weak executive function and the fact that we don't always tune into what's going on, and we don't always know how to navigate these things, and so you know that that made us get bullied, and then as we got older, we kind of got used to that condition, and to the point of your survey, like it does happen in adulthood for ADHD

Brooke Schnittman: 22:42

adults, you mentioned the survey in my survey for ADHD adults, about 90% reporting being bullied as children, and over 80% reported being bullied as adults. So to your point, why do you think those patterns continue into adulthood? I think they

Caroline Maguire: 22:58

continue because we may not choose the right friends right like we we take less than we deserve. So I think there are red flags that show up, but I think that we feel desperate honestly, and so we we ignore those initial red flags. And I get why. So this, is me saying I understand that. And then as we get into it, we realize, you know, a lot of adults report this to me, people who don't invite them somewhere, but then sort of say to them, Well, you know, so and so didn't invite you, and I'm allegedly your good friend, but I, you know, I didn't feel comfortable. Well, a friend is someone who defends you behind your back, right? So this is like, by the way, with Caroline, a one way ticket, like we're done. Because if you are claiming to be my good friend, and you get somewhere and they're that's not okay. But I think that we, we don't know what to do about that, right? People write me, emails, DMS all the time about this. People, my clients, have this so we start to just we've taken less, we've we've kind of ignored the red flags. We don't feel like we have as much social opportunity. I do think we do tend to rush into relationships sometimes, and so we're not like knowing the person as well. And I do feel like there's a feeling of scarcity. And so part of me is saying, like, I know, saying you have to interact 11 times to make a friend. Like, people are like, I don't want to do that, but I think that investment is important, and I think actively looking for friends is important. And again, I know there's people are going to say, I hate it. I don't want to do that. I think we have to have a reset of how we do that. And I talk about that in the book. But if you have only one friend and then they treat you like that, what do you do?

Brooke Schnittman: 24:59

I. Right? That was literally my next question. You have no friends. You basically, you have

Caroline Maguire: 25:05

no friends. So what I hear from people is, I know this treatment isn't okay, right? But like, now I don't have anyone. And so that's why, in the book, I say, like, I know you don't like this advice everyone, but you should have multiple things going on, multiple people that you are cultivating in friendship and, you know, and to have that initial stage where you think about it, because what I see is that the bullying continues into adulthood, the not great treatment, you know, forget about just like we don't really have anything in common, and seeing you doesn't feel worth it. But I feel like some of that also is that we we take that treatment, or we do. I don't think missing birthdays is the issue, right? Like everyone is obsessed with I can't miss birthdays. I miss birthdays, and that's why I have to take less. I'm like, I don't think that's the reason. I really don't. I talk to typical people all the time about this stuff. I'm like, you know, one of those people where we're at the dinner table and someone says something. I'm like, can I just ask you a question, you know? But like,

Brooke Schnittman: 26:10

I important is this on a scale from

Caroline Maguire: 26:12

one to 10? Important is this birthday thing? Because my clients do forget people's birthdays, and they attribute this as why they should take less and treatment. And the poor, typical person is like, don't care

Brooke Schnittman: 26:23

my birthday. Actually, I'd rather you not care as I get

Caroline Maguire: 26:27

please don't draw attention. But like, I think part of it is we feel less than and we feel so bad about the birthday thing, right? And I think in past generations too, it was much more important, right? Like, I think some of this also is the context we were raised in. You know, my parents think sending cards for all this stuff is, like, super important. But nowadays, like, you go on Facebook or social media, or you text someone like you don't send a card

Brooke Schnittman: 26:55

all the time, right? Evite, and then a thank you is on evite.

Caroline Maguire: 26:58

That's right, exactly. Thank you. Yes. So I think like, but I think then we think, Oh, I forget things, and I forget people, and people fall off my radar, and I'm bad at this, so then I have to take this lesser treatment. And I think that that we have to keep up with people to some extent, right? And I think the falling off the edge of the earth thing isn't, is an issue, and I'm just as guilty of this as anyone, but I don't, but I think part of it is that because we don't feel confident enough, we aren't attracting people who treat us very well. And I think that's that's how the bullying continues, I really do. And I think that when people go on this journey of late diagnosis and they're realizing things, I think friendship will shift, and hopefully this book will help to say, like, Hmm, like I was that way before, but now I have this new information. Let me see what I want my life to really look like and kind of like changing some things, changing, you know, how you do basic things, and then how you do relationships?

Brooke Schnittman: 28:04

Yeah, can you give us some more examples of how to do basic things? So you mentioned going on getting to know someone 11 times. What other tips from your book Can you share for neurodivergent people who struggle with that rejection sensitivity of, oh my god, I forgot their birthday. Now I can't show up and I'm going to isolate or, you know, I'm just going to take what I can get, because I have no friends. What are some more tips that you can bring to the audience? Sure, I

Caroline Maguire: 28:32

like to put things on autopilot. Like, we're not great with memory, and so we're not great with like, oh, I texted them a week ago to set something up. So now I have to remember, right? So I love activities where you show up, and there's a lot of research that shows that showing up at the same place every time and every week, or whatever helps that proximity really helps build relationships. So if an activity or a group is on autopilot, if your relationship is on autopilot. Every you know, three weeks, we meet for coffee. I see them always at this activity, I go to this gym class, and we see each other, and then we go for coffee after, like, I online groups. I think are very underrated. I think there's been a lot of negativity toward online relationships, but a lot of my clients find that very comforting. They get braver, they start to make real friendships, and then they translate that into in person relationships. But they kind of needed that safety net. So I think those are places that are sort of set every you know, fourth week you have this thing that happens, and so that I think is essential is autopilot. I also like to anchor things. So whenever you arrive at work, you sit in your car and you return texts. Whenever I wait for my son's bus, I have to stand outside for like, ever and ever. And so I just, I text people back, I take care of all those social things. Is, and it's a it's a habit. It's an anchor, you know, maybe it's when you sit down to lunch or after you eat dinner. And you can also tell people that be like, hey, you know, I really struggle with, you know, getting back to people. So my ritual is this, right? And I think the one of the other big things is having a body double, right? So having someone else, whether it's that you go to one of these body double groups, and they have ones online that are super cheap or even free, and then you do that, some of those social correspondence things then, because I think the body double really helps us, sort of, like, get those things done, yeah, and do it. But I like relationships that you you know it is autopilot. You don't have to feed and nurture it in the same logistical, executive function heavy way that's really

Brooke Schnittman: 30:53

hard for us, and that really reduces the friction there. I even think of doctor's appointments. I know this has nothing to do with friendships, but you mentioned autopilot, make the doctor's appointment before you leave.

Caroline Maguire: 31:05

Make them my dentist does that. And I'm like, so grateful. I'm like,

Brooke Schnittman: 31:09

thank you. Like, send me a date, perfect. I'll tell you no or yes,

Caroline Maguire: 31:13

great, right? Like, I hate it when they change stuff, because, like, when I get that phone call, I'm like, Oh darn it, I am gonna forget to call you back.

Brooke Schnittman: 31:21

Yeah, I love the accountability piece of body doubling in, texting someone back at a given time, and not haphazardly, just, you know, looking at your phone and feeling the rush of like, oh, I need to message them back. But being intentional about it, one of the best and worst things that has happened to iPhones is leaving your message unread, right? So you see the blue dot, and you're like, Okay, I'll come back to that. But then you have 20 unread messages, right? They go really down. And you're like, wait, where is this 20 unread messages from? But yes, the accountability is everything, everything.

Caroline Maguire: 32:03

And some people really like the method of, like, the minute it comes in, I respond, and I totally get that. It's just that, for me, I'm getting texts right now, I'm sure, and I'm not able to respond. And also, I feel like that could become, like a big distraction, like I'm never really present, or I'm never really, you know, doing whatever, because I'm always doing that. But I do know that there's people out there who are screaming from their car, like, that's the best thing. That's how I do it,

Brooke Schnittman: 32:30

whatever works for you, right?

Caroline Maguire: 32:32

Yeah, I think you have to get a system. And I think that's true of everything with ADHD, right? Like, we have to have a system that externalizes stuff because we can't remember, if we're just relying on our memory, then it's this, it's this emotional weight too, like it makes us feel really bad and enter the shame cycle. And I don't want us to feel that way.

Brooke Schnittman: 32:58

You know, growing up, just side note, I remember my mom used to always say, you know, friends are in your life for different reasons, different seasons, right? So you have this fun friends. You have that friend who's a good friend, blah, blah. What we're talking about here really feels to me that you don't need those, oh, that person's in your life to be ex friend. Like, you want to attract only the good friends. Can you speak more to that? So I

Caroline Maguire: 33:30

think yes and no. Like, I think your mom's different reasons for different seasons is important, because I think that's actually, literally what's happening in friendship. Like, there's a lot of research that's showing that, you know, people do come into your life for a reason. In a season, sometimes you make a friend that is your, you know, this niche interest friend, and you do those things together. I always give this example, my hairdresser loves fishing, and she has, like, a fishing YouTube channel, and like, she does all this fishing, and then, like, she has a group of friends that just is about fishing, right? You can have that right. And I think that's part of your mom's a reason and a season. I think ADHD people very much because we're afraid. We want the staticness of friendship. We want like to meet our people and keep our people and nobody moves and nobody moves away, right? And the problem is that that's not really what happens in life, and you're learning and growing, right? So if you're a late diagnosis person, I promise you, you are evolving, right? Life is changing for you. Who you want to be around is going to change, what you feel about yourself is going to change. So I think we do want to cultivate friendships, and sometimes you know someone moving away doesn't matter. You're such good friends, it doesn't matter. But there are people we can have for different activities, different interests. I think we can have different levels of friendship. I just think we have to recognize it. And I think one of the hardest things for ADHD people, and I talk about this in the book and ADHD people, is that we don't always recognize that an acquaintance is not a friend, and that they might be even an emerging friend, right? They might be someone more cultivating, but they're not a friend, yet, then we imbue them with friendship expectations, and then when they don't meet those expectations, we feel really rejection, sensitive, because we're like, oh my god, I expected this of them, and they're not giving it to me.

Brooke Schnittman: 35:29

Okay? So can you explain what an acquaintance is compared to a friend,

Caroline Maguire: 35:33

an acquaintance is someone who you don't know their whole life story, right? They don't know your whole life story. You see them sometimes, maybe you don't even know their last name. You might see them in like, a specific situation, right? Like you see them at the gym or you see them at the farmers market, but you don't necessarily have a relationship of reciprocity, right? They don't emotionally give to you, right? You, I don't, I know we do do this, but don't emotionally give to them yet, right? Like you know? And so I think there's that lack of knowledge about each other. You can't necessarily count on them for those emotional things, right? And then you're moving, hopefully, some of those people that are activity buddies into the emerging friends category, and you're cultivating those relationships. And I really talk about like how to do that in the book, but you have to make a distinction, because if you count on that acquaintance and you you expect them to support you and hear about things happening for you, they might, and that might show, wow, they're an emerging friend, but they might not. And then you're so sad, you feel rejected. And so my little story is this, one of my clients wrote me and said, like, I'm so devastated. I was supposed to meet someone for coffee, and they canceled. And when we met and we talked about it, it was like, well, they're an acquaintance, so this coffee meant a lot to you, but it probably didn't mean as much to them. And so them canceling or moving it, it really shows the status of the relationship, or that something came up for them, right? And so I think one of the things that happens is we are giving of ourselves so much when someone isn't really a friend, and then we feel really bad when they don't give back as much, but they're not going to give back as much because you're not in the friendship stage yet. So it's not you. It's like 150% not about

Brooke Schnittman: 37:47

you, right? Right? This, I think the one line that all of us need to hear, it's not always about us.

Caroline Maguire: 37:54

It's not literally not like and I think a lot of our friendship. Rejections aren't really rejections, but because of our past, we take them as rejections, because it feels like, oh, here we go again, you know, but it's really about the status of the relationship or things happen for people like so many times my clients tell me that, like, you know, it was about me, and I'm like, don't they have a sick mother, right? Like, didn't you tell me a story about them, like they're going back and forth from here to there, like they're struggling with this, you know, they're in graduate school, whatever it is. So I think a lot of times we do need to pause and challenge that story, that it's about me, or that it is a rejection. And I talk about this a lot in the book of like, how do you do that? But like, think a lot of times we jump right to this is a rejection. This is about me.

Brooke Schnittman: 38:59

Yep, it's so funny. I feel this even in my family dynamics. I have two stepsons, and one is hypersensitive. I'm hypersensitive, and I have to process it. I'm like, You know what? He's sensitive. I'm sensitive. It's not about either one of us. It's about our own stuff, right? So it could show up anywhere, yeah.

Caroline Maguire: 39:20

And as a mom, I have to tell you, one of the things I have in the book is to write a letter to like, your 14 or 10 or whatever, your old self, and to do some healing. And as a mom, I have to, I have to work on not overreacting, because sometimes my kids aren't that upset about something, and I'm like, oh my god, burn their house down. How dare they do this to you? And they're like, it's not that big a deal, mom, and it's because I already cared about it. Yeah, right. I carry all that rejection from the past, right? And so we have to be careful. I think you have to know yourself and your triggers. And I talk about this in the book like, know that that 14 year old girl, she's still there. Our 14 year old Caroline is still there. And sometimes when something comes up, she takes control, and she's like, this was a rejection. This is the end. I'm gonna have no friends. I'm gonna be alone, like you go and you spiral, you know?

Brooke Schnittman: 40:17

Yep, it's interesting. You're basically talking about like inner child work right, or ifs. And I found that, and I know this is a topic for another time, but I'm going to go here. I found that when someone is really struggling with anxiety and rejection and relationships, and I could speak for myself on this too. Talk therapy doesn't work, and I know that's not talk therapy, but I really feel like tools like you have in this book is what is needed. Exposure is what is needed. And then once we build that confidence that you mentioned, then we can go back and really start reflecting on, okay, where is my 14 year old showing up? Where is like, let's start to really process this, because if you, if you're anxious, stressed, and then you try to process it, it could be deepening the wounds. What are your thoughts on that? So I'm

Caroline Maguire: 41:19

a big fan of trauma therapy, because I think that some of us need that healing, and I've done a lot of trauma therapy myself, and people will, people will DM me and say, You just talked on a podcast about being, like, completely bullied, and like, how are you able to do that? And I'm like, well, because I've had trauma therapy around it, so I it doesn't feel activating to me, but I really feel like a big part of this also is like my therapist isn't around in my daily life a lot of times. So what I love about what you said is I do think people need tools, and that tool might be when I feel that rejection and the once the flooding has passed, right and I've calmed myself. Then I challenge the story, and I say, what else could it be? What is this story that I'm telling myself? And then I also look at, what was the trigger? Right? Was the trigger? Somebody not inviting me? Well, maybe they only had two tickets, right? But it always feels like rejection, because there's been just so much in the past, you know what I mean? So I think that, like, what I've tried to provide are like concrete tools, like Ned hollowell's Demon is like one of the most brilliant things that's ever hit us, and I use it all the time, because, you know, if you feel that ruminative distraction, it is so magnetic, it is so powerful. And I'm a ruminator, and I've really worked on it for a lot of years. And, you know, his thing of, like, have a distraction that is just as powerful, and do that in, you know, to get you away from the rumination. And it's like, I used it the other day, I was starting to fester about, like, pre sales and Amazon numbers and, like, it's too early to tell, but I like, love to check them. And then my husband was like, why would you do that? Why would you check them? And I was like, I don't know. It's like, a magnetic thing. And so then I started to think, I need to do something that is just as power out, right, right? So it, it is a fact, though, that, like, we're gonna go into those, those moments, we're gonna feel them. And then, like, Do you have a process so that you don't just spiral, you have something you do, like, I go to

Brooke Schnittman: 43:38

interruption, go to, right? Yes, yes. I call it air. Acknowledge. So acknowledge your feeling like this is flooding me right, like my body is all whacked. I'm not going to do anything productive right now interrupt, do what you know works like if you have to go to the mailbox and pretend to get mail and come back just so you can go outside and take a deep breath, then redirect once your nervous system has calmed down and your amygdala is not hijacked anymore, and you could think,

Caroline Maguire: 44:07

and I always I talk about in the book too, like having some personal policies. Like one of my personal policies is I don't send emails, right and on in that moment, I don't send texts. I put them in drafts. I do the same thing with being tired. I do not send emails late at night, because this is just not a good scene. So, you know, I think like to come up with some things like you said, where maybe it is that you just absolutely have to get fresh air. So like, what are the excuses you have built in to sort of say, I'm going to go take a walk? You know, when I worked in an office, I remember I would like, walk to the copier. I would do things like that, because sometimes I needed to, like, even if a co worker just said something to me that I was like, rude, you know,

Brooke Schnittman: 44:51

zoned out, yeah, yeah. I would just,

Caroline Maguire: 44:53

I would like, do something so that I could, like, process and whatever. And I remember doing that so I think to. Have those sort of go to behaviors is really essential, because otherwise, I do think we not only flood, but we go into a moment where that rejection sensitivity takes over and colors everything we do. And listen, sometimes it is legit. They treated you badly. You know, please process feeling bad about it. But I think sometimes we take something as a rejection that's not really a rejection, or we take a relationship that we haven't really invested heavily in, and we we feel rejected because the past stuff comes up so much so

Brooke Schnittman: 45:41

this is kind of a little off kilter. But what do you say to someone? Clearly, this person isn't your friend, but someone who says to you, You're too sensitive.

Caroline Maguire: 45:52

I really hate it when people say stuff like that, because it's so rude. Like you wouldn't walk up to someone and say you're too insensitive. Like I've been thinking that a lot lately, I wouldn't walk up to someone and say, You know what I think about you. You are too insensitive. I wonder what would happen if you were like at a girl's dinner and someone said, You know what, you're too insensitive. You're mean to the baristas, and I'm only having dinner with you because other people insist to come. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I wonder what would happen. I would never, by the way, do that. I'm not that. I'm not that way. I'm not confrontational with other people about things like that. But I think when people say You're too sensitive, here's a couple things. One, maybe I'm not your cup of tea and I'm too sensitive for you. And I think we need to reframe and re acknowledge that I'm not for everyone, right? Like, I'm not I have no personality. I have a lot of opinions. You know, maybe I'm not for you. Maybe I'm too sensitive for you, right? Bye, bye, right? Also, I think when people say that, there are people trying to say, This is too much of a topic, or like, I can't hear about your divorce for the 100th time or something. But I think in many cases, it's really that they don't have the emotional range or register. They don't have the experiences of every time I enter a room, I experience everyone else's emotions as well as my own. And I think it is an incredibly rude things to say, right? Because if they're really your friend and they really care about you, right, and they're really invested in you, wouldn't they sit down with you and on a one on one situation, say, you know, it feels to me like you know you're you're hurting so much sometimes, and I wish, as your friend, you didn't feel that hurt when they say something nicer like that.

Brooke Schnittman: 47:51

You would hope so, right?

Caroline Maguire: 47:53

But I think some people sensitivity bothers them, and I feel like we get said things like that a lot. And I also think it's kind of like that, like, Sorry, not sorry, that the kids say, right?

Brooke Schnittman: 48:06

Like, it's like, no offense but

Caroline Maguire: 48:09

no evidence, but Right? Oh, absolutely, but it's like, but I do take offense, right? And I think sometimes people are giving a non apology, right? It's a very toxic behavior, like, I'm gonna apologize, but then I'm gonna tell you all the reasons why, like, this is really your fault, right?

Brooke Schnittman: 48:27

I'm sorry that you feel that way. Sorry you feel that's the phrase

Caroline Maguire: 48:31

I was searching for, sorry you feel that way. And I kind of feel like we know as a society that that's a red flag and that's toxic, right? We know now that, like, if someone really does something, they should just apologize, right? That's it. I think it's a it's a flag. And I think, listen, I don't think I'm for everyone, and I think there are people for whom our personality doesn't work, regardless of neurodiversity. And I think going back to our original conversation, we don't feel confident. And so like, when I say this to people, they're like, Oh my God, but I can't lose someone. I don't have that many people. And so this goes back to why I wrote this book. I want us to have enough people, and I want them to be good people who treat us well, so that when someone doesn't treat us well, we can say, I'm going to distance myself from you because you don't treat me well, and when I this is my litmus test. When I am with you and we are done being together, I should feel good, not bad, right? Not exhausted, not exhausted, not bad about myself. You shouldn't have brought up my faux pas. Like, Hi, do you want me to bring up your faux pas? Like, what are you talking about? Right? Like, you know what?

Brooke Schnittman: 49:49

You know what scares me. Sometimes I have an aura ring, so it is a litmus test for people who I feel toxic around, right? Because the stress starts. Percolating. It's like, what happened to you that past hour? Like, whoa, around someone who makes me stress you're like,

Caroline Maguire: 50:06

it's black. I'll never forget when I started reading, writing the book, and I was having just interactions with so many people and an assistant in a capacity that I was interacting I won't say what to protect the innocent, but she said to me, I just want to know, do I have to have brunch with people who make me feel like dirt, and when I leave, I don't want to, like, even have the rest of my day. And I was like, no, no, right? Like, so I feel like this is part of it. Is just when you leave someone and of course, everyone has a bad day, right? You know, you could say the past 360 interactions have been great, and this one wasn't great, but like, you should feel good. Yeah, yeah, I want that for people, and that's why I pushed this like a rock uphill and got this book published. Because I was like, people need to have an avenue

Brooke Schnittman: 51:00

feel good when you leave a friendship Mic drop. Is there any last statement that you want to leave before we end this podcast?

Caroline Maguire: 51:15

I just want people to know that there's different ways to make friends, and I one of the things I say in the book is it's tools, not rules, right? So take what you want, leave the rest, you know, but we haven't had this. There's literally, sadly, no book on the market for adults. And I really want us to have this, and I really want to hear from you if it works for you, if it doesn't work for you, and I, I just want people to have what they deserve. And I feel like we deserve friendship. We do.

Brooke Schnittman: 51:54

Where can people find your book? Reach out to you if they have questions, so you

Caroline Maguire: 51:59

can find the book. And I brought a nice copy so it wasn't all crunchy. Being in mind the book anywhere books are sold. If you go to at author, Caroline M, that's my Instagram, everything leads from there. I love hearing from people I answer every single email or DM myself,

Brooke Schnittman: 52:19

but just not throughout the day or

Caroline Maguire: 52:21

not throughout the day when I'm stressed, or when I'm like, know that I'm like, emotionally triggered. So please, yeah, come find me. And I'm going to be doing a lot of stuff that's fun, where people get to interact and ask me questions, and I'm going to be announcing that stuff on Instagram soon. So please come, come find me, and let's, let's let me. Let me help you.

Brooke Schnittman: 52:44

Let's go. Thank you so much for being on here, Caroline, I know I personally relate to a lot of what you say, and it's always a pleasure talking and learning more from you. Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com, and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember, it's Brooke with an E. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you