ADHD, AI & Overwhelm: How to Use Technology Without Losing Control with Chris Wang

I’m joined by Chris Wang—co-founder and CEO of Shimmer and creator of the Indie ADHD support app—to explore the fast-moving world of AI and what it actually means for ADHD brains. We get real about the tension so many of us feel: can technology truly support executive function, decision-making, and organization, or is it just adding more overwhelm?

Chris shares how her late ADHD diagnosis completely shifted her perspective on productivity, and we dig into how to navigate tools, goals, and AI in a way that actually works for your brain. If you’ve ever felt stuck in analysis paralysis with too many options—or unsure how to use AI without spiraling—this conversation will help you simplify, refocus, and move forward with more intention. 

Episode Highlights

[00:20] - Why AI feels both exciting and overwhelming for ADHD brains

[01:51] - Chris’s late ADHD diagnosis and how it reshaped her view of productivity

[04:14] - The real reason technology can increase overwhelm (and how to avoid it)

[05:56] - “Start with the end in mind” and why direction matters more than perfection

[07:31] - Odyssey planning: designing multiple futures instead of one rigid path

[10:23] - Letting go of all-or-nothing thinking and embracing flexible goals

[13:43] - Where AI actually helps ADHD (and where it adds noise)

[15:14] - Why “done is better than perfect” when choosing productivity tools

[19:20] - How Indie helps you prioritize what actually matters

[22:47] - Energy accounting: managing tasks based on your mental bandwidth

[24:10] - Guardrails to prevent AI from becoming a hyperfocus trap

[26:15] - When AI supports growth vs. when it replaces critical thinking

[30:21] - The future of ADHD + AI: leveling the playing field

[35:43] - The one mindset shift to reduce overwhelm with tech and tools

Links & Resources

Chris Wang is the co-founder and CEO of Shimmer, the leading coaching platform for teens and adults with ADHD, which has supported over 80,000 coaching sessions to date. She also leads Indy by Shimmer, a free ADHD support app that launched this January. After being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, Chris founded Shimmer to help build a more neuro-inclusive world. She has been recognized as a Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree for her work transforming ADHD support.

IG: @adhd.christal

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Transcript

Brooke Schnittman: 0:20

Brooke, welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke schnittman, let's get started. Welcome back to successful with ADHD. I'm your host, Brooke schmidtman, and today we're talking about something that's moving incredibly fast right now. AI and I know for ADHD adults, technology can either reduce overwhelm or completely amplify it. And the real question is, Can AI actually support executive function decision making and organizing our thoughts. So today, joining me, I have Chris Wang. She's the co founder and CEO of shimmer, and also leads indie, a free ADHD support app that launched this January. She has been recognized as a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree for her work advancing ADHD support. Chris. Welcome to the show.

Chris Wang: 1:23

Thank you. I'm so excited for this Convo. Thanks for having me.

Brooke Schnittman: 1:26

Same here, same here. So you were diagnosed with Eddie, she is an adult, correct? And like so many of us who are women who were diagnosed later in life. I'm just curious, how did that late diagnosis change the way that you think about productivity, systems and tools?

Chris Wang: 1:51

Yeah, so before getting diagnosed for most of my adult life, I worked in a very rigid workplace that had a very specific way of doing things, and I perfect for the

Brooke Schnittman: 2:03

ADHD brain, right?

Chris Wang: 2:04

Yeah, and I was always getting in trouble. But, like, one specific example that kept happening was if I had some three things due at the end of the week, I would push all three of them forward at the same time, and I would go back and forth between them, and my boss would come check in with me and be like, Oh, which one's done? I'm like, Well, none of them is done, but they'll they'll be done by the time I said that they'll be done. And that just that created so much friction, and which then put me on high alert, which then made my performance even worse. And so I think that example I bring it up is, I think the biggest thing that I learned since getting my diagnosis is realizing that there are so many ways to do things, and it's not even like there's the ADHD way and then there's the non ADHD way. It's about the process of discovering what works for your brain and what works in the environment that you're in, in the job that you're in. And I just never, I think I'd never felt empowered to explore that before getting my ADHD diagnosis. I always just thought that I was doing it raw, and that was like one micro example that showed up in like so many different ways in my life.

Brooke Schnittman: 3:13

I just got off a podcast where we were literally having the conversation, if you don't feel safe, your executive function shut down, and you don't perform. So not only is it that you didn't know you had ADHD, and you also have the struggles to manage it, but now you don't feel safe, so you have to overcompensate with that.

Chris Wang: 3:34

Yeah, and then you start hiding things, and then it just creates even bigger challenges, because then there'd be situations for like, Why didn't, why didn't you tell me this? I was like, because I was scared,

Brooke Schnittman: 3:45

exactly because you were micromanaging me, and I was scared that you weren't going to like, the process of me doing it. But I promise you, those three things will be done by the due date that you set exactly. A lot of technology promises to make life easier. And for the ADHD brain, we know it can sometimes add just a little bit more noise. So with that being said, Why do you think that happens?

Chris Wang: 4:14

So I think the thing is, right now, especially with AI it, it is so overwhelming, ADHD or not, to know even what is going on. Like this is not an ADHD problem. But it gets even worse for ADHD years, because we already feel like there's so many things working against us. There's this other thing that we now need to understand. Need to figure out how to work with and need to figure out how this thing fits into our life, when maybe we've just spent the last few years like figure out exactly how our current systems work, and now needing to re pick everything back up and stay up to date. It definitely can just be a lot for anyone. And I think what I always come back to and what is in. And the way that we do coaching as well is that there are infinite things that you can always do at any given point and like that will never change. And that's just a product of life, unfortunately. And so the important part is to first, without looking at all the things that you could do, is narrow down what is actually important to you and where you're trying to get to, and generally those things are technology independent. Like if I have a goal, or if I want to live my life in alignment with a certain value, or I have a goal of achieving something in my life, the ways that I get to it are kind of secondary. But I think the issue is a lot of people get caught up with the ways, like the tactics, and you can spin forever and forever on all the possible technologies that you can possibly learn. Or you can start with the end goal in mind and then think to yourself, which technologies are useful for me to achieve those end goals.

Brooke Schnittman: 5:56

Stephen Covey, start with the end in mind, and I love that. For ADHD brains, we know we're not linear, and to be honest, we might not reach the goal right. The goal might change. But as long as we can come up ahead of time, I think with figuring out some challenges along the way, or multiple paths to possibly get to that North Star goal, it might reduce the friction of when we come up against those challenges on the way of narrowing it down, on the way to the goal too.

Chris Wang: 6:25

Yeah. And also I used to get so there's this concept with, I like, it's not actually in shimmer indie, but I personally like, and it's called Odyssey planning, where you look at three or four, I don't know the official number, but multiple different possible futures of your life that may look very, very different, but you would be excited about any of them. And I really resonate with that concept, because I have so many different divergent interests and things that get me really going. And I did the Odyssey planning actually earlier on this year, in the beginning of the year, in January, and that was really helpful for me too, because then you can also, one, you're happy with multiple different outcomes, and then two, you can maybe draw strings that go through them, like maybe there's a specific value that comes up for you a lot, or there's something that shows up in all of them. And maybe then that'll help you identify that it's important. So I think I share that, because I think that there's more than one ways to set goals. And I think sometimes when people hear the word goals, and especially if they're like, What do you want to be in five years or 10 years, you're like,

Brooke Schnittman: 7:31

oh, like, first of all, future myopia. And I don't know now or not now. So like, what am I doing today?

Chris Wang: 7:38

Yeah, exactly. So I think finding the right way for you to just have a direction and a direction could be a goal. It could be multiple possible goals. It could be a value. It could be just a event that you want to happen in the next six months. There's so many ways to set what we quote, unquote, call goals that there's really it's about finding what works, what serves you right now. And maybe you set a six month thing that you're looking forward to, because right now you can't look beyond that. And then maybe when you get to that thing in six months, maybe now you're like, hey, actually, I think I'm ready to set some 12 months goals. Maybe I'm ready to think a little bit further so it there isn't one right way to do it. And so if you're feeling overwhelmed and saying, No, well, I can't have a 10 year goal. Like, that's totally fine.

Brooke Schnittman: 8:26

You don't need a 10 year goal. I don't think I've ever made a 10 year goal. What I find really cool, though, is that I find that a lot of my clients like, well and me too, I will set a goal and I might not achieve it at the timeline. But somehow or another, even, you know, like I align my actions with it and all that, but somehow or another, I put it out there and externally and internally, I hit the goal, like maybe nine months, maybe in 12 months, even though it was a six months goal. Do you find that happening to you, too?

Chris Wang: 8:59

Yeah. So I think the for me, the purpose of a goal is, is direction because or else, you don't even know which direction to direct yourself in. So maybe you misjudged how long it was going to take, or maybe if it was exactly like here or here, but at least because you had that you know that you're not going here. So a lot of my life has been very approximate, but approximate is still that approximate direction is better than no direction. So I think if you get the timeline wrong, if you get the exact angle wrong, that's totally fine, but having the direction not only makes sure that you're propelling yourself in the direction that you're happy with, but gives you that internal motivation, because you feel that you're working towards something that even if it'll change, even if the timeline is wrong, but you know that that thing is important to you, and that you're working towards something that is important to you.

Brooke Schnittman: 9:52

I think that's so helpful for ADHD ers, who have all or nothing mentality too, and feel. Feel the shame if they're not meeting their goal. To say, this is just a direction. I might go in this direction, in that direction. It might take six months. It might take 12 months that direction, like I know I'm aiming for it, but it doesn't have to look exactly like this, and it might shift. I think that's amazing for ADHD ers to hear, who struggle with perfection. So thank you for that.

Chris Wang: 10:23

This is a random analogy, but I do this when I'm exploring new cities. Is that I kind of know where I want to go, like there's this monument over here, or whatever it is, and then I know the general direction, and then I turn off my map for a good like 12 to 15 blocks, and I know I'm generally going in the right direction, maybe I'll overshoot a little bit. But for me, having that freedom to not use the map and but to know that I'm moving towards the right direction, and also, because I like adventure and novelty, it gives me the freedom to also have experiences that maybe if I was just following that exact map, I wouldn't have it, I'd be so stressed that I would take a wrong turn. So in those situations, especially if I'm walking, I don't use the directions I would with a car, but I still kind of get to the right direction. Sometimes I'll overshoot it or end up over here, but that's fine. Then I'll just readjust. And I think life is kind of like that as well. It's not about getting it perfect. It's about figuring out how you want to move through it. And if you're like me, and you like the novelty and the adventure, maybe taking some detours and getting it wrong is actually not a bad thing.

Brooke Schnittman: 11:29

Yes, that's amazing. I've started several years ago to just come up with a word of the year and work backwards from that. So even if I love that my Yeah, even if I'm not hitting my specific goals when I would need it. If I'm moving in the direction of that word, I can tie all the things that come together with that purpose of the word is this aligned with that? If it's not, then it's in a different direction. This year I need to pivot and maybe do it next year. Cool. So you mentioned real quick, if we could just back up for a second Odyssey. Can you tell me, like, how an ADHD or finds this, or how a human does this odyssey thing that you mentioned? Yes, yeah, please. This is the first I'm hearing of it.

Chris Wang: 12:15

I did not invent it, but it's called Odyssey planning, and if you just Google it, but it looks like there's designing your designing your dot life seems like one that exists. I don't know if that is the one. There's also University of Florida. Looks like it has it, but you they call it prototyping three futures. So you design three possible futures instead of a single plan. And so I did it just on a notion page, I looked at it across the different life areas. That's how I usually do my planning. In the shimmer app, we have that as well. And at the indie app, where it helps you identify the different life areas that you're putting your focus on and how you kind of want to achieve your goals. In there. So you can do it like that. If you already have a framework for how you plan your year, I would just take that and, like, triple it. I am very wary to not add, like, add too many frameworks, or get people to rip out the way that they're currently doing things. So if you have a way that you already plan your year that you really like, you can do that, if not, if you just Google Odyssey planning. I'm sure there's tons of frameworks. And now, after this conversation, I think maybe I'll make a freebie on Canva and put it on my Instagram.

Brooke Schnittman: 13:25

I love it. I love the inspo. So many ADHD adults struggle with executive function, right? Planning, prioritizing and organizing information. Where do you see technology genuinely helping versus just adding another layer of overwhelm.

Chris Wang: 13:43

It can be so overwhelming sometimes to use chat, GPT or, like, more generic LNS, that was, like, one of the reasons why we created what we did with indie. And I think one thing is, if you have the technical skills to build something custom for yourself that is awesome, like ideally, everyone would be able to do, but most people are not technical to do that. So I would definitely start with something that is ADHD aligned. Obviously, we've built indie that's a great place to start. It's completely free, and it does a few things that I think all ADHD tools should. And so one of them, for example, a lot of the times you use AI or use tech, and it's just a never ending conversation. It asks, When you finish a convo, it asks you, do you want to generate an image for that? Do you want me to do this? And you just end up in this, like, long rabbit hole with indie specifically, you can enter, like, a weekly planning or daily planning, and it will show you the little progress bar on the top, and it'll push you towards an end, and then when you get the end, you get like the confetti, the wins, the insights pulled out. So I do think that using tools that are fit for ADHD and are designed to reduce that overwhelm and designed to get you out of it so you can go out. Out into your life and do the thing is, I would highly recommend it. There are other ADHD tools out there as well. I think one that I used prior to indie was goblin.

Brooke Schnittman: 15:14

It's so good, so simple, but it's

Chris Wang: 15:17

so good. Simple is the best.

Brooke Schnittman: 15:19

The amount of steps that are in a task we don't even like, can't even conceptualize, and God breaks that down for anything. And I would

Chris Wang: 15:29

also say that Done is better than perfect. If you have a tool that, like, kind of 80% works, you don't need to, like, rip it apart and start a new app or do a new thing. Really ask yourself, like, what are you trying to solve by changing to a new app or changing to a new system and making sure that that system is actually

Brooke Schnittman: 15:49

going to solve that? Yes, seriously, this reminds me of a client that I was working with, and she's an ADHD entrepreneur like us, and she was like, I have to use a task management system. And I'm thinking about notion. I'm like, what do you use right now? And currently, she uses Google Sheets, and you know, the Google tools to manage clients and projects. So she's like, I gotta use notion. Because I heard notion was great, and maybe Asana, and maybe this, and maybe that I said, is Google tools working for you? And she goes, yeah. So why do you need to change it? Well, I heard that this is way more productive. I'm like, do you feel confident in Google tools right now? Yes, great. Let's not fix that problem right now. If it these other tools have the same solution. And so we worked together for a while on other stuff, and now she's going to be likely moving to a different management system. But like, to your point, right? A new app, a new system isn't always necessarily better if it's achieving the same goal. Sometimes, yeah, and that

Chris Wang: 17:01

was actually one thing. When we were deciding to start indie, we had a lot of internal debate, and also with interviews with users and the beta users as to, like, what is the purpose of indie? Like a lot of people would say, hey, it would be great if indie could do my to do list, or it would be great if Indy could organize my calendar. And there's all these, like, it could be great. And I feel like navigating that was kind of like navigating life, you know, it's always like, oh, it'd be great if I could be a little bit more productive. It would be great if I had a new system for this. This is a little bit ugly. Maybe it should be a little bit nicer. And so we really had to, because it was blue skies, and we could create whatever we wanted to create, we had to really, like, sit down and think through, like, one, like, what is the science behind what we're doing? And two, like, what is actually really needed that maybe ADHD ers aren't even asking for, rather than what everyone is asking for. And so with indie for example, like the daily and weekly the purpose of those interactions is to help you identify what is the one most important thing that is important for you. In order to move you towards those things that you have said is important, it's not to like make everything as productive as possible, or to like organize your infinite to do lists. I think there are lots of apps that are out there that are out there that do that already. So we strongly believe that the piece that is missing, and especially for folks who maybe don't have a coach, or can't afford to have a coach, whatever the reason is, to be able to have that thought process of like, what is most important? How do I get there? What's in the way? What do I do if this roadblock comes up? So those questions, in our opinion, is kind of the piece that is missing that I think that technology, when it's designed in a way that is helping you actually cut through all those noise and Build Your Capacity and your capabilities, can be able to really deliver in a unique way that I think, pre AI, it wasn't really possible.

Brooke Schnittman: 19:05

So we know that with ADHD, especially in attentive, pretty much everything is of equal importance. So if you're cutting into to go back to what you were saying into figuring out what's most important. How does indie solve that?

Chris Wang: 19:20

Yeah, so we help break it down in terms of so the first exercise when you get into the app that we that you do, is called the storyline exercise, and it helps you imagine the narrative of your life going backwards and going forward and going forwards. And you can build on that over time. And so that becomes kind of like the North Star. And then from there, basically, whenever someone's like, oh, I don't know, here's my brain dump. I don't know what I should do, it helps them orient to Okay, well, let's look at these things. Which ones of them you said that this storyline event is really important for you this week? Like, how do these events help you get there? And then people can be like, oh, actually. Like, 90% of them, like, don't really relate to anything. I think I just kind of wanted to do, and they're on my to do list, and we're like, Okay, well, maybe we can park those and you can box some time on Friday or Saturday or whatever, to do that, but you have committed to yourself, and it's important for you to move forward on this one item. So it helps. It doesn't tell you the answers. It asks, similar to a coach, it kind of asks you the questions based on the inputs that you've put in before, so that you can come to your own conclusions. And they might not be perfect, maybe you make the wrong choice one week, but then it facilitates you through the reflection process, so that maybe next week you're like, Oh, well, last week, I actually made this decision and I wasn't happy with it. So this week I'm going to do this differently so it's not like a one shot. It's always gonna get it right, but it helps you go through that process, because the end goal is for you to build that capacity to be able to run through that thinking yourself

Brooke Schnittman: 20:51

pretty cool. And how would you say that this is different than chat GPT, that learns the human or Claude when you input all of your information and starts understanding your type,

Chris Wang: 21:08

yeah, so chatgpt And well, all of them not specifically chatgpt, but most people use chatgpt is meant to answer your questions, so you have to know which questions to ask, and you need to know how to prompt it correctly. It also has some other issues around always wanting to affirm you. And so if you go down a rabbit hole, it'll just push you down that rabbit hole instead of asking you, is this really important? And so with indie what we have very consciously created is a space where after you do that first exercise, the goal of the app is to move you closer and closer to those things, or at least if you do something that's not aligned with those things going through the conscious thought process of like is this, is this aligned with what I want to do? Why am I doing this? And so it's really pushing towards one, forward momentum, and then two, and forward momentum, not in the terms of just productivity. We use the term existential productivity, which is just productivity towards things that matter to you, not productivity, just for productivity sake. So the movement forward is one thing, and then the movement inwards is the other piece. So there are exercises in there, like the storyline activity that will help you understand things. So for example, the agent I'm working on this week I'm super excited about it is energy accounting. So it'll help you identify which things deposit energy for you and which things like draw and withdraw energy from you. And then once you have that, when you have your weekly and dailies, it will take that into account. So it's purpose built for for the specific reason of, I am an ADHD er who wants to move forward in this direction and wants to understand myself

Brooke Schnittman: 22:47

better, and then with the energy deposits, when you are energized, will it then map out the task based on, you know, your energy level, or battery level, being like, Okay, you're only at 40% today. We're only going to give you a 40% task.

Chris Wang: 23:03

So that is, it depends on how the person chooses to use it, and the the AI will learn that. But for example, if you say that this next week, these are the things that are happening, and they all happen to be energy drainers for you, you might not notice that. And so it would suggest something like, Okay, well, it looks like there's a lot of withdrawals this week. Is there something? Here's your list of your like, positive stuff that you might have forgotten, the things that deposit energy for you. Would you like to, like, input something into your calendar, and then you can click, click it, and it can add it to your calendar. So it's helping you. It's not making decisions for you, but it's helping you remember that this is a concept that you have been exposed to, that you have withdrawals and deposits, and then it'll give you suggestions, or at least start the line of thinking for you to use that in your day to day.

Brooke Schnittman: 23:54

Amazing. And so many of us adults with ADHD worry that AI will just become another rabbit hole for hyper focus. So what are some guard rails people should use so it supports them instead of derailing them?

Chris Wang: 24:10

Yeah, I view AI as like mobile or internet. It's kind of just a layer that is currently novel, but is just going to be in everything, for better or for worse. And so you don't need to learn everything about AI to use it the same way that, like I don't understand the hardware of my laptop, to be able to use it. So I think we're in this weird stage right now, but because it's kind of new, people feel the need to know a lot more that maybe in unless you work in AI, it's different, but maybe in like, even six months, 12 months, people are like, there are startups working on reducing the overwhelm of all the interfaces so that you don't need to interrupt this open chat bot. The AI is just layered into everything that we're doing. That's how I believe it's going to shake out of. See, there's no objective truth right now. Things are still shaking out. So I think being giving yourself some grace that you don't need to understand everything that's coming out. And then again, back to my original first point, I think it's just always measuring everything that you're about to look into, you're about to rabbit hole into, like, what is the purpose for you? So if you are getting towards all of your goals, and you are having great time doing it, living alignment with your values, maybe you don't need to explore everything that is coming out with AI if you are working in the AI space, obviously that looks a little bit different. So I think it's just again, like making sure that you are taking everything from a lens of like, what is the purpose of me doing this for me, not just, not just doing it, because everyone else is doing it. Thank you for

Brooke Schnittman: 25:51

sharing that. So do you think that AI eventually can act as real time support system for things like planning, remembering commitments, structuring a chaotic day, because I know that I always want, like, chat GBT in my ear. Like, can you just tell me what to say? And this, like, sometimes we become over reliance on it, but I'm just curious. So I think that

Chris Wang: 26:15

if something can take away something that hurts for us forever, then it's worthwhile. It's kind of like a calculator, right? Like we kind of forgot how to calculate, but we always have calculators, and we can rely on them, so that's okay. However, I think that if AI for you is taking away some degree of critical thinking, that you need to apply that critical thinking in other places in your life. And so that's up to you, to think of what those things are. Then maybe it's not worth it for you to have it completely taken away, have that skill taken away from you, and everything's contextual as well. So you could maybe, maybe you just hate writing emails, and you want all chatgpt to write all your emails, but you are great at interacting with people, one on one in person. So then in that case, I think that's fine. So I think it's about critically thinking about what you're using AI for and what it may take from you, and if you're okay with that, and that's just the negative side, I think there's also what you may gain from it. I think a lot of folks don't want to use AI at all, but if it can bring you from a point in your life where you're not happy or maybe not making enough money, you're not living the life that you want, and if you rely on this tool, that you can be able to take that next step, to get that next promotion, whatever it is, then it might be worthwhile to you. So I think it's so contextual to what part of AI we're talking about to what your goals are, and kind of how, how you want to show up in the world, and what skills you want, what skills and traits that you want to embody. Because I do think that there is a real concern that AI can take away certain ways of thinking or skills that we have. And if those skills are important to you, it it is, right now, a little bit up to you or us, or whoever it is to like, think about that and and protect, protect that so that you don't lose that specific skill that you want.

Brooke Schnittman: 28:16

Yeah, yeah. I see AI as an accommodation when it's used, right? I mean, think about the speed and information that you can gather and at the same time, to your point, for ADHD years, who like novelty and love the dopamine hits, it can pretty much take over all of our decision making, our day to day life, right? And just become another social media for us, which then really is just like adrenaline seeking, not even dopamine at that point.

Chris Wang: 28:47

Yeah. And I think it also like if, for example, if you think, for you, being able to structure problems and brainstorm and come up with ideas is a core skill that you want to be known for, that you want to use in your job into the future. I would probably not start every project with asking AI right away, because I think in that case, it does take away some of that creativity. However, if you come up with a brainstorming, you do your stuff on the whiteboard, you come up with your additional ideas, and then you take a picture of it and send it to AI and ask it like what you've missed, or other ideas or how to extend it, then I think that's a great use. However, if, let's say the opposite, if you're not a brainstorming person and you hate brainstorming and you just want AI to help kick you off, and you just don't care about that skill, then jumpstart power to you exactly. So I think it comes down to really thinking about what value and what passions you have, what value in the world you give, what passions that you have, and what skills you want to cultivate, and making sure that you're using the tools AI is just one tool, right? Like using the tools around you to support that, and it'll look different per person.

Brooke Schnittman: 29:59

So you. Been talking a lot about AI for over the past year. I know where do you think the intersection of ADHD and technology is headed over the next decade? I know we talked about, oh, who sets 10 year visions? But if you had to predict over the next few years, where do you think it's going?

Chris Wang: 30:21

I am a tragic optimist, so I could be wrong, but I sometimes confuse where do I think something's going and where do I hope something's something's going. So I do think that a lot of the things that ADHD ers are bad at, just like our general executive dysfunction, will be made a lot easier with AI. I do believe that, and that's why, even though there are a lot of costs and a lot of ethical dilemmas in my own head about the usage of AI and where AI is going, I do think it helps level the playing field for people with ADHD if products are created in a way where it supports that executive functioning. So for example, like all of I don't know, like figuring out my insurance, my dentist, like all that stuff. Like, if I have an agent going out to do those, the amount of headache that stuff causes me just goes away. And I can focus on things that I'm really good at. That is a net benefit for me. So I do think that from that degree, ADHD ers, and the things that we're good at, the creativity, the risk taking, like, all the human stuff, I think we'll have an opportunity to shine, and I'm very excited about that. I do think that there are a lot of negative potential outcomes as well, especially as we think of like, AGI and like, I don't know, just, like, if the robots take over that kind of stuff, which, like, I, I don't, I don't tend to think about because if it happens, then, like, we're in a very different reality. But I do think that, like, when I think about the short to medium term, that a lot of the low level stuff that we struggle with can be taken away from us, and I'm really excited to see that unlock a lot for ADHD years, for there to be more entrepreneurs, for to be easier, to be an entrepreneur, for us to not get stuck under micromanaging, neurotypical bosses, all of that. But again, I'm a I'm an overly optimistic person.

Brooke Schnittman: 32:20

I love that, and I'm curious. I mean, I've seen the data out there. It says 30% of entrepreneurs have ADHD. And I would challenge that and say, when I'm in a room, pretty much more than half of entrepreneurs have ADHD, in your opinion, or from what you've seen out there, what is the percentages?

Chris Wang: 32:40

I've heard that number also, but I also agree that I think it's probably higher, and if not ADHD diagnosis, it's ADHD symptoms. I think the symptoms of ADHD and symptoms is maybe the wrong word. Even the traits and the strengths of ADHD are just so well fit for being an entrepreneur, and also the reasons why people would currently leave neurotypical bosses, or, like, more neurotypical structures, I think, also contribute to that. Like, let's say all the businesses in the world were led by managers. There's more ADHD ers and the systems were created in a way, and the the rules and the systems and incentives were created in a way that were more neuro inclusive, maybe there would be less ADHD entrepreneurs. And I think part of the reason too is that we're escaping the thing that doesn't work for us, and we're trying to create something that's better. And so as more and more ADHD ers become entrepreneurs, I hope that that and their companies get bigger and bigger. I hope that that will mean that, like, if you are not super entrepreneurial, which is nothing wrong with that, and you have ADHD, you won't go into a company and then hate it and get defeated and then feel like the only way out is to start your own business.

Brooke Schnittman: 33:57

Yeah, that's so true, not being confined to feel like there are literally no choices for you because of everything that you just shared with neurotypical norms, and, you know, being squeezed into exiting and becoming an entrepreneur, not like it's a bad thing. I love being an entrepreneur, but to your point that being the only choice,

Chris Wang: 34:20

yeah, because I think there are ADHD ers who are genuinely fit to be entrepreneurs, and it's obviously not binary. It's not like you're fit or not fit, but it's really their calling. And then there are ADHD ers who felt forced, and that, I think that's the reality of it. And then I think it, it's almost like there can be an even more negative impact, because they keep hearing the narrative that ADHD ers are meant to be entrepreneurs, that, like you, should be really successful, that ADHD ers should be able to do this, do this, and it's like another layer of should. And maybe they are. They have ADHD but maybe they don't actually want to be an entrepreneur. They just don't want to be in that narrative. Cool workplace that they were at. So I think we need to be really careful too, on like, not overly adjusting and saying that, like, oh, 80 all ADHD ers are fit to be entrepreneurs, because it just can't be the reality. It's like ADHD ers are all very different, same way that neurotypical people are all very different. And maybe you also should can find a company that's more neuro inclusive, or work for a boss that's has ADHD

Brooke Schnittman: 35:25

right and understands it and knows how to work with other adhds. If someone listening right now has ADHD and feels overwhelmed by technology, productivity tools and AI, what's the one mindset shift that could help them use these tools more intentionally.

Chris Wang: 35:43

I think it's mapping out where you want to go and what's important to you. I know I probably sound like a broken record, but I think that's such an important piece of work to do, and you can do that, as mentioned, in so many different ways, but that acts as a criteria sheet for when you're looking at that new tool, that new journal, those new markers, new outfit you want to buy, like all of that, whatever decision you're making needs a criteria sheet. And that criteria sheet, for me is like, where you want to go and what's important to you. Love it.

Brooke Schnittman: 36:21

If someone wants to find indie or learn more about it, where should they go? The App Store, if you

Chris Wang: 36:29

search indie, ADHD, it should be there. Or if not, I am on Instagram at at ADHD dot crystal and indie is at ADHD dot, indie, awesome.

Brooke Schnittman: 36:41

Chris, thank you so much for being on I know I learned a lot about ADHD and AI and executive functions, and I'm excited to see where this indie app goes for you. And thank you for creating a product that's in a container meant for people with ADHD. Yeah, of course.

Unknown: 36:58

And thanks for everything you do as well. This is a lot of fun. I can't wait to collab more in the future.

Brooke Schnittman: 37:04

Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke. And remember, it's Brooke with Vinnie. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you.