Narcissism or Autism? Nuances & Power Struggles with Dr. Sam Shay

In today’s episode, I’m joined by my friend and colleague Dr. Sam Shay—also known as The Neurodiverse Doc. Sam is autistic, ADHD, and deeply committed to helping neurodiverse adults understand how their brains actually work in a world that wasn’t designed for them.

We dive into a powerful (and sometimes triggering) conversation around autism, ADHD, bullying, and the often-confused overlap between autism and narcissism. We talk about intention versus impact, pattern recognition, coercion, control, masking, and what happens when you finally reframe your entire life through the lens of neurodiversity. If you’ve ever wondered, “Is this narcissism… or is this autism?”—this episode will give you language, clarity, and validation.

Dr. Sam Shay, DC, IFMCP, is a functional medicine expert, keynote speaker, and self-described NeuroSpicy comic who helps neurodiverse adults navigate life in a neurotypical world. Diagnosed AuDHD himself, Dr. Sam has dedicated his career to advocacy, education, and support for individuals on the autism and ADHD spectrum.

With over 25 years of experience in nutrition, genetics, and functional lab testing, he created the Neuro-Harmony Model and DNA-Decoded programs—data-driven approaches designed to boost energy, improve mental clarity, and help families create environments where neurodiverse individuals can thrive. Alongside his clinical work, Dr. Sam uses clean, witty, story-driven comedy to bring awareness to neurodiversity. His one-hour special, NeuroSpicy: Love, Life, & Comedy on the Spectrum, blends humor with powerful insight and is a must-watch for anyone seeking understanding through laughter.

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] – Understanding the difference between narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths through their core drives
 [1:03] – Welcoming Dr. Sam Shay and why this conversation matters for neurodiverse adults
 [3:52] – Sensory overstimulation, bonding over shared neurodiverse experiences, and Vegas misconceptions
 [6:24] – Autism vs. narcissism: similar behaviors, radically different intentions
 [8:27] – Discovering autism later in life and “backfilling” 38 years of memories
 [14:57] – Grief, identity shifts, and recalibrating your nervous system after diagnosis
 [18:23] – Bullying, coercion, and why neurodiverse kids are often targeted
 [21:09] – Masking vs. adapting: where survival ends and authenticity begins
 [26:27] – Pattern recognition as protection and reclaiming personal agency
 [35:41] – Finding your tribe and why one safe person can change everything
 [37:29] – Sam’s closing wisdom on truth-seeking without losing human connection

Links & Resources

·         Website: www.DrSamShay.com

·         DNA-Decoded program: www.DrSamShay.com/DNA-Decoded

·         Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drsamshay 

·         Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sam.shay.792 

·         Youtube: www.Youtube.com/tenpointwellness 

·         Article on Narci

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Transcript

Dr. Sam Shay: 0:00

So the difference between a narcissist, a sociopath, and a psychopath is their drive. The primary drive for a narcissist is to seek attention. The primary drive for a sociopath is to seek control. The primary drive for a psychopath is to seek power, usually, to get thrills. For a sociopath, they can seek control, either through charm or coercion. They will do the charm offensive first, and then they will do the coercion if the charm doesn't work. And this explains why, when interacting with sociopaths, they can be the most incredible, charismatic, you know, fun people, but then they can flip on a dime

Brooke Schnittman: 0:38

and become vicious. Hence, a lot of cult leaders, right, correct?

Dr. Sam Shay: 0:42

When I look at someone's seemingly opposite behaviors, charm and coercion, and they both exhibit different behaviors that are seemingly opposing, then I'm not looking high enough at the higher order drive that explains both behavior when I understand that the primary drive is control, then either is a strategy so both behaviors are explainable.

Brooke Schnittman: 1:03

Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke schnittman, let's get started. Welcome back to another episode of successful with ADHD today. I have a friend and colleague, Dr Sam Shea. He's the neuro diverse doc who helps neurodiverse adults overcome the unique challenges of living in a Normie world. Dr Sam himself is on the spectrum, and he's ADHD and has dedicated his life to advocacy and support for those on the spectrum. He has 25 years of combined experience in nutrition, genetics and functional lab testing. Dr Sam created the neuro harmony model and the DNA decoded programs, which are data driven strategies to help parents boost their energy, enhance their mental clarity and create supportive environments where their children can thrive. And in addition to his clinical work, he advocates for neurodiverse individuals with a comedic style that is clean, witty, intelligent and story driven. And we'll put the links in the show notes for your one hour comedy special, neuro spicy, love life and comedy on the spectrum, definitely a must watch. So today we're going to be talking about autism, understanding how your unique autism shows up for you, the genetic piece and the link of understanding people in your family who have autism as well, and the difference between narcissism and autism. And I know this can be really triggering hearing it, but hopefully for those of you who are battling, Is this person a narcissist? This conversation will be helpful for you to decipher the two and understand the lens of the autistic individual and understand the lens of a neurotypical person and connection. So thank you for being here on the pod, it's good to see you. Brooke, thanks. Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, Dr Sam and I actually met last year in Vegas, and it's not what you think. We were on a mastermind trip and we were on a school bus going to our next function of the mastermind, and Dr, Sam and I were sitting next to each other, and there was this woman who was sitting right next to us with the loudest noise ever and voice, and she was definitely drunk.

Unknown: 3:30

You're not helping. Our alibi that this was not what they think, by the way, with your description on a school bus next to some drunk chick like this is not helping.

Dr. Sam Shay: 3:40

We were literally on a way to someone's home for marketing group. And just like as a meetup, try, I'm trying to create possible deniability.

Brooke Schnittman: 3:52

That's right, that's right. So we're sitting next to each other, as it turns out. And luckily for you, you had earbuds on. I did not, and she had the most piercing voice, to the point where both of us were like, ah, get us off the gas. Get us off the bus. It triggered our over stimulation.

Dr. Sam Shay: 4:12

Yeah, and then we bonded over our mutual sensory affliction.

Brooke Schnittman: 4:16

Yes, we did. You reached out recently, and I'm so glad that you're here to talk about the gut brain axis connection and functional medicine. So let's get started. How did you get involved in neurodiversity?

Dr. Sam Shay: 4:31

Sure, so I didn't figure out I was on the spectrum. So I was 38 I didn't I didn't figure that out, because, until I realized that my father was autistic, and my, I mean, it's a debate. It because it's a, you know, we all know it's a spectrum, and there's like, how, in my comedy show, I describe myself like I'm on the spectrum, but my father's the book end. I. Figured this out with the help of a friend of mine whose father, who told me I was describing my father's behavior, and he said, is, Is your father a narcissist, or is he just deeply on the spectrum and unaware of it, and never bothered to actually, never, never bother to actually do anything to help himself better adapt. He just kind of further retreated more and more and more. And he says, and I said, What are you talking about? And he said, Let me describe my father. And then he described my his father, who had the exact same behaviors, just a different field of specialty. The behaviors were like sensory over stimulation. Was only interested in three topics, of which he was a PhD level. My father has two doctorates. Almost had a third. He just didn't bother getting the dissertation for done, like he just completely in his world, and could not read social cues to save a life. Did not have any kind of real body awareness. We keep bumping into things just, you can just go down this checklist. And then I realized, like, wait a minute, am I, you know, a watered down version of this? And the answer is yes, and I just went further and further into it. And by the way, like some of some people may feel like super triggered when I say narcissist, or is he Asperger's?

Brooke Schnittman: 6:22

I'm glad that you said that, though, yeah, I

Dr. Sam Shay: 6:24

understand that there's a wonderful list which I can send you. The link for someone on this is a list I found in 2019 of 25 commonalities and differences between narcissists and people on the spectrum and so but the five which had similar behaviors but different intentions. So for example, like narcissists, will be cold and aloof as a manipulation to control you. Whereas my father was just in the zone of his thing. He just wanted his special interest, which to me as a child, was cold and aloof. But he wasn't doing it to manipulate me. He was just into his thing to the exclusion of me. So there's I just want to make this very clear, like this list is very telling, and I feel very worth looking at, because it explains how, how people on the spectrum can be accused of narcissism falsely, because it can appear like the results can look the same, but the intention is totally different, like the narcissist will weapon are very astute at understanding social cues, and will do things to cause on purpose, whereas on purpose, whereas it can be cluelessness or just failure to read the Room for someone on the spectrum, so the damage can be the same, but the intention is totally different, and that's why I thought, yeah.

Brooke Schnittman: 7:46

And then someone living with someone who is ADHD, who looks like they have these narcissistic tendencies, but it actually is a function of their autism, can still, like you said, have the same triggers for the non autistic person who doesn't understand.

Dr. Sam Shay: 8:10

Yeah, once I realized this, it, I went and back filled all my again. I was 38

Brooke Schnittman: 8:17

and how old do you now be 45 in two weeks. Okay, happy birthday. And that's not that long ago, seven years ago, right? So talk about back filling.

Dr. Sam Shay: 8:27

Yeah, back filled. I went back and just went. And then, you know, once there's so they can't take credit for this joke, but it's deadly accurate. Says one sign you're on the spectrum, you stay up until 3am filling out online surveys to see if you're on the spectrum.

Brooke Schnittman: 8:44

Same thing with ADHD, right? You stay up till 3am with online service.

Dr. Sam Shay: 8:48

Yeah. So, so once I, like thoroughly self diagnosed my father and myself, I backfilled and it explained all these other like, all these experiences I had with him were just like, oh, this is now completely logical. Now I understand what's going on. Now I can understand what happened now and so and then what also happened, which when I fully realized just that that I had Asperger's, I went through a three day period where there was this imagistic relentlessness in my head, where every single memory, a lot of the especially the traumatic ones, was replayed through the filter of understanding who I was neurologically in that same context. So I went through a three day period, which was really harrowing, honestly, of just my whole brain and my whole memory and my whole life was being refiltered through this new lens of a. Being neurodiverse, it was painful, and it was very helpful for me to understand, because no longer was I drifting like, why this? Why this? I don't understand what happened like, I finally had answers like, and I read, you know, for example, Dr Tony Atwood's The Complete guy to Asperger's syndrome. I listened to it was about over 15 hours, and it's kind of uncomfortable to have someone who I've never met basically read back my entire life to me in 15 hours on an audio book. But I realized that I needed to be honest with myself, like, Okay, if this is real, then how do I lean in and not and at the same time, not berate myself for being so different, and also not clutch onto the particular superpowers I have and kind of lord it over the quote normies it's and when I when people are on, When they have neurodiversity, whether it's ADHD or on the spectrum of autism or whatever it might be. The way I describe it is that people have a certain set of superpowers with a small buffet of kryptonites that come with it. It's just the bell curve is kind of turned. It's not a bell curve. It's a U shape there, it's, it's, it's, there's some hyper accentuated capacities and some hyper accentuated vulnerabilities. For me, when I did my comedy show, and I did comedy because I chose to do a comedy show because I know that comedy is the is the best vector for truth that's palatable and memorable, and I wanted to create the 60 minutes that I wish I heard 30 years ago to better understand how my brain works and how to better adapt into a different world that's not designed for my brain type. So I designed a comedy show to bring those on and off the spectrum together. That's why it's clean, it's observational, there's no politics, there's no cursing, there's no cheap body fluid jokes. It's I'm not I'm not bagging on good comics who do those type of humor tropes. Well, I'm not doing that. There's at least a dozen different styles of comedy. I just chose this style very specifically, because one, it's me. Two, it's as I found be the best form to bring people together as a long form, 60 minute, completely narrative, coherent structure that's really funny and meaningful and educational. So the comedy was a way for me to also reconcile some of the most painful parts of what it's like to grow up with this U shaped curve of capacity and vulnerability. I spent three minutes just on sound sensitivity out of a 60 minute show, and I'm going to say the most spectrumy thing ever. That's 5% of the show, you know. So three, three minutes is just on sound sensitivity. This is my personal kryptonite. I can't, I'm I'm in Colorado. I am close to Red Rocks, the single best outdoor music venue, arguably in the entire western hemisphere. And I can't go because it's too overwhelming, too over stimulating. It's it's too overwhelming, like I can't I went to, I went to, like a bluegrass show, and even that, I had to literally leave and sit, sit outside by the bathrooms until the concert was over. So I can go over my friends. I could maybe go to a comedy show, because then I know when the laughs are coming, and I can time, you know when the sensor is gonna don't need pure fidelity to hear words. So I can wear concert earplugs. If I go to a music show, I can't. It's just, I just, it's the sound sensitivity is just one of those kryptonite, something to belabor the point, but it's I finally understood why I couldn't be in many different social situations, why I would grip my ears and double over in pain at a restaurant when everyone else is fine. That's just one example of me going through the refiltering of my entire life, and it was relentless. And I'm sharing this point Brooke, because I'm so worried about people who have they figure out they're on the spectrum, and they go through this kind of maddening, multi day experience where it's, frankly, it's just traumatic and and I just say like there's one, there's a finish to it, and I think it's the nervous system's attempt to recalibrate as quickly as possible, this new sense of self, this this new it's kind of an ego identification upgrade that, yes, like, it's like a REAP going through the birth canal. Yeah, psychologically, yeah. So pain

Brooke Schnittman: 14:57

with any new awareness. Right, new diagnosis that your understanding is a part of you, there's the awareness, and then there's a lot of grief, right? And then you want to learn everything again, and you want to find your people, right, and then you feel empowered, and then you can go through the cycle again. And I'm curious with going back to the point of narcissism versus autism, right? So you have the grief of you trying to find out the last 38 years of your life, what was my autism? What was me? What you know, I created these stories. But also then now you're re figuring out your dad, who is supposed to be like the protector, who's supposed to be the the security, right? So what was that like for you, knowing that you were on the spectrum, he's on the spectrum, so you had some of the tendencies that he had, and also trying to figure out and navigate your own life.

Dr. Sam Shay: 16:10

So I lived in this very bizarre no man's land, where my father, I mean, I spend a good, probably like, eight minutes on my mother and father on the show. And the way I describe my father, I'm on the spectrum, but he's the bookend. But another way to say it is that he's farther down the spectrum from me than I am from normies. So I was in this no man's lane where my mother was more normative, though she actually, by her own admission, is a narcissist. So I was caught between a narcissist and someone who's autistic. And I had, I it was this very bizarre experience of I was being felt totally isolated and alone for two different motivation sets. It was, it wasn't pleasant, to say the least. And you know, you know people on the spectrum a very strong sense of justice, and so I do not wish to do what either of them did to me, even though what they did was very different, sure. And so I that's, that's why I put a very high currency on integrity and communication and being present and authentic, as opposed to absentee or manipulative. And that's kind of the two ways I would describe the polarities absenteeism versus manipulation.

Brooke Schnittman: 17:34

Okay, so do you mind if we go down this rabbit hole for a second? Sure. So I have someone in my life who's ADHD as well, and same type of thing I had to ask my therapist, Is this person a narcissist, or is it a function of their autism, and they're not a narcissist? It was a function of the the autism traits, right that you mentioned. So I'm curious, like, if you feel naturally a certain way that must be really hard to fight that in the things that you are doing, to not be like your dad or not be like your mom, if Naturally, there are some tendencies to not be present or to not be you know, whatever your natural being is,

Dr. Sam Shay: 18:23

well, that's, that's where, growing up, I developed a severe video game and sugar addiction, and so I checked out. Part of the reason I got into natural health and functional medicine was because my health was absolutely cratering. I mean, I had terrible health, chronic illness since I was six years old, and both my parents were psychiatrists, which is an entire other fascinating, hilarious tragedy. I It was very hard to I mean, I honestly, like growing up was incredibly difficult. I didn't really feel super empowered until my 30s or 40s especially, and it's taken a lot of coaching, a lot of functional medicine, a lot of nutrition, a lot of lifestyle changes, a lot of reading and studying and understanding, just basically looking at humanity like I'm an anthropologist and a sociologist, and it's how related got into comedies because I developed a video game Addiction. But it started with television because I didn't understand why people would lie, because I would go to school and they said, like, I'll be your best friend, and then literally, get round house kicked in the face the next day. So I had violence at school. I'm so sorry, absenteeism and manipulation at home and gaslighting at home. And then I went to television like sitcoms and like sitcoms when they were funny, but also I could start to I studied sitcoms like an anthropologist, because the each it's called situational comedy, that that's what sitcom stands for, and every person in the sitcom embodies a specific archetype. I mean, the Greek, the. Greek pantheon are just archetypes of different people and and then all of these, you know, massive stories and everything around the Greek pantheon. But then you have sitcoms, which is kind of a comedic modified version of everyone's just in their archetype. And then I can learn how this archetype responds to this archetype, of responding to this one, responding to this one. And then I began to develop a theory of mind and a pattern recognition to understand and predict human behavior. And the one, one definition of truth, what is true is what predicts, so that the truth seeking orientation of someone on the spectrum, because I wasn't really born with very with, with pre formed social software. I had to build my social software from scratch. And so there was learning the hard way, you know, at home and in school, where I had to learn how there was manipulation and lies and and, and just people will say they stand for one thing, but they clearly don't. And and then I go to sitcoms where then I see how people behave predictably based on their archetype

Brooke Schnittman: 21:09

question, how much of you predicting right and changing your behavior is masking, and how much of it is social norms.

Dr. Sam Shay: 21:25

So I mask when I feel that I'm that I'm under threat if I my default is to be authentic and tell the truth, and I can feel myself put a mask on if I feel like I'm actually going to be I or my reputation or some material thing that I'm connected to, I'm under threat in some way, then I can feel the temptation to mask. But if I'm not feeling threatened, I I can't bear masking. I find it I find it exhausting, and so I don't want to mask, but if I feel threatened, I will me analyzing people. I don't think analyzing people is a mask. I think that that's how I behave. Is masking, but me studying is not masking. Unless I'm studying people and avoiding people that's different, like, if I'm if I'm like, if I'm there, like in my proverbial clipboard, and, you know, pen while everyone else is interacting, that's a form of avoidant masking. But I feel that studying people is not masking until it becomes that, until it's an avoidance pattern. I mean, I recently taught a class on perception, and I converged about 12 different models of human behavior and human patterns and primal prime drives for people, whether it's looking at, you know, disc method or Colby, or even the Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart, people may laugh when they hear that, but if you the more you go into that chart and you really study it, first of all is but made, made by a bunch of people on the spectrum who were trying to understand human motivations and drives. So it's kind of brilliant, honestly. And there was about a dozen systems. And what I would tell people is like, I don't care what. I included, evolutionary biology, evolutionary psychology, certain books, you know, protecting yourself from emotional predators. As one book, the five types of people that will ruin your life. As another book, what I recommend it to people is study at least three separate systems really well, and then if you meet someone and all three separate systems converge on the same prediction pattern. You're you're really onto something in terms of, how are you accurately reading this person? So I draw for more than three, but I just, I laid out about a dozen. It's like, you just pick three. I don't care, just pick three. And that is a way that you can create better and better models for predicting. Can you give me an example? Sure, so the difference between and I talk about this in the show. So the difference between a narcissist, a sociopath and a psychopath is their drive. So the drive, the primary drive for a narcissist, is to seek attention. The primary drive for a sociopath is to seek control. The primary drive for a psychopath is to seek power, usually, to get thrills. So for a sociopath, they will seek they can seek control, either through charm or coercion. They will do the charm offensive first, and then they will do the coercion if the charm doesn't work. And this explains why, when interacting with sociopaths, they can be the most incredible, charismatic, you know, fun people, but then they can flip on a dime and become vicious.

Brooke Schnittman: 24:52

Hence, a lot of cult leaders, right?

Dr. Sam Shay: 24:55

And because when I look at someone's seemingly opposite behaviors. Charm and coercion, but and they both exhibit different behaviors that are seemingly opposing, then I'm not looking high enough at the higher order drive that explains both behavior when I understand that the primary drive is control, then either is a strategy, so both behaviors are explainable. So if I'm looking at like, sociopathy, then I'd be looking at, say, like the Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart, and I'm looking at someone who's more on the chaotic, not lawful, but kind of, they don't have a strong moral structure, but they want control, so, like, there's lawful versus chaotic they want social they actually want more lawful orientation, because they want control over the thing where and where. There's other people that are wanting a more chaotic thing, because they're just there to have fun. Psychopaths don't mind chaos, because psychopaths are parasites, evolutionarily speaking, because parasites take control when the host is weakened. So psychopathy actually, psychopaths actually thrive in chaos because they're not bothered by it, and they can just gather more and more power. Whereas sociopaths, they don't really like they will, they will leverage chaos when needed, but they don't actually like it because they want to have control. So I know, and it's this, we're kind of getting a bit nuancey here, but, but you can get this granular in kind of dissecting out who is who and why is why.

Brooke Schnittman: 26:27

So basically, if you know the traits of a specific label, then if three of the markers that you're thinking and predicting about a person is accurate, then your prediction is likely correct. Is that what I'm gathering if

Dr. Sam Shay: 26:41

we had, if we had much more time, and I had my PowerPoints like, it'd be much easier to kind of draw the connections to it. And by the way, I learned that psychopaths can control sociopaths can control narcissists can control spectrums. Spectrums, okay, because psychopaths are not bothered by the extreme emotionality of sociopaths. Sociopaths trying to control with emotional whiplash, this bouncing back and forth between charm and coercion. Psychopaths aren't perturbed by that. And then sociopaths can control narcissists, because narcissists, they want attention, and sociopaths, they want to seek control. So they can control the narcissist by feeding them their little narcissistic supply and drips like give them just enough praise to keep them hooked, but deny them enough so the narcissist keep running back to try to get more, and then the narcissist can control people are autistic because we just want to, like, follow the rules and do what's right and make people happy around us and be like and and the narciss, they're just like, they're never happy, because all they want is attention. It's not about what's right. It's not about truth. It's about attention, whether it's good attention or bad attention.

Brooke Schnittman: 27:56

Wow, wow. There's, there's so many thoughts that come to my mind right now in the political climate that we're in, but I'm gonna leave politics out of this conversation for now.

Dr. Sam Shay: 28:07

Yeah, so, but then here's here's the way to escape it. So I don't want to make this as like some hierarchy, and we're at the weirder the spectrum or Doom, not at all. And this is why I put it in the show, because once you identify the patterns, the people on the spectrum are the best at pattern recognition, the best. So once we can, oh, I know what's going on, there, there, there, and there, suddenly we're free and we're

Brooke Schnittman: 28:32

at choice. Okay, so here's a question for you. I recently did a global study for adults with ADHD about bullying. Now, coercion doesn't equal bullying. I understand that it can be a form of bullying, but it's not necessarily repetitive behavior that's intentional. So here's my question. So with this survey, 91% of the adults with ADHD Who filled it out were bullied in childhood. 83% of them were bullied in adulthood, and 73% were bullied in both adulthood and children right so now, going into the autism spectrum, you're saying that there's this, like funnel, pretty much of coercion. So would you then say that most autistic children who don't understand themselves, who don't have the education around how their brain works or understand these other people, these narcissists, Psychopaths, sociopaths. Would you say that the majority of them get coerced?

Dr. Sam Shay: 29:49

So I just so a couple things I wanted to clarify. First, just for the audience to be clear, I also have ADHD. I know I've focused more on Asperger's and autism, but I also have that was diagnosed. Noticed by a psychometric, individual psychometric analysis earlier this year. So in terms of my pure experience of being bullied horribly in school, how much of it was ADHD versus autism, I don't know, because I have both. The other is, I would really love to hear your definition of bullying versus coercion, yeah,

Brooke Schnittman: 30:19

so the definition out there about bullying is when there is someone who is in control, right? And they repetitively victimize someone to gain control. And this can be covert, it can be overt, so it could be physical, it could be verbal, it could be in front of people. It could not be in front of people, but it's intentional, and it's where one the bully is in power, and it's repetitive.

Dr. Sam Shay: 30:48

Yeah, so I don't, I don't know if it's just control. Like I would add to the definition. I wouldn't necessarily push back. I would add some more detail to it, because the bullying that I experienced, there were certain elements of control, but most of it was about the thrill of power. It was just sadistic pleasure, and they weren't trying to control me to do something they were just enjoying humiliating

Brooke Schnittman: 31:24

me, right? So where one person has power over the other person?

Dr. Sam Shay: 31:29

Yeah, okay, yeah. So I guess, I guess when I say, when I hear the word control versus power, I make a slight difference again. This is very aspy thing to do, like new,

Brooke Schnittman: 31:40

yeah, no, no. Thank you for changing that, yeah, yes, and thank you for correcting me right. They right only we can control ourselves, but

Dr. Sam Shay: 31:49

I can dictate your social status, your your physical status, like, Are you safe or not? Your financial stuff, like, power is I have? I can direct your health, your attention, your finances, your reputation, according to me, not you. That That's power and control to me is I'm going to force you to do a thing, as opposed to reputationally damage you, which may involve me controlling how I can do my hair to to maintain it. If you're asking me about, like, does bullying happen to those on through artistic like, the answer is 100% yes. And there's, there's, there's, there's plenty of research on there on that, because I'll give you real examples in my life that are born out in the research and basically textbook. That's why it was so awkward for me to listen to Dr Tony Atwood's book on Asperger's, because he's basically reading back my entire childhood experience in long form. And I'll give you an example the I'll be your best friend if so they stat, there's this, there's this false contract that I take literally, and I do the thing and, like, people cheated off my homework and tests all the time because I was like, oh, okay, you know, because I wanted friendship, I was lonely, and so I want a thing, and here we're gonna, we're gonna resist this transaction, and then literally, Round House kicked in the face the next day, and I'm deeply confused and hurt, and I don't understand. And no one's explaining anything these certainly the adults aren't, and I'm just kind of left in the wilderness. And then, like, it kind of happens again and again and again and again, and then, or they say, Hey, if you do this, then this will happen. Like, I, for example, I have, I have a deviated septum, because someone did that thing. If your hand is bigger than your face, you're going to get cancer, or whatever that thing was, and I put my hand here, and I got punched right here, and smashed my nose, and I'm since I was a kid. So that's absolutely awful, yeah, and this is and it becomes a downward spiral. So where people, people who struggle on the who don't have, you know, pre programmed social software, and even worse, they don't have adults in the room who are there to educate, direct and

Brooke Schnittman: 34:07

protect, who could very often be the bully themselves too.

Dr. Sam Shay: 34:11

Yeah, yeah. So this is where it can become a downward spiral, where then there can be a strategy that one adopts, like I did was, like, I just don't want to socialize, because all I get is hurt and humiliated, so I'm just going to go to video games and television and sugar and the whole time. But then that doesn't become effective, because then loneliness takes over, and we're social creatures. So there's this constant, you know, damned if you do, damned if you don't experience and so this is where people looking for tribes. Is looking for your tribe is probably the most primal urge we have, next to like sleep. This was back in the 80s and 90s. And so now what's happening with the internet is that there's a capacity for people who are like minded to find each other. And. And also a capacity for scaling of helpful content, like this conversation, like my comedy show, like learning about people's individual genetics so they can customize their lifestyle, so they're much more resilient to the slings and arrows of daily life. There's much more accessibility to things that are of support, and also there's a commensurate piling on of extraneous data and noise and distraction as well. So it's like, we have, we have, we have stronger connectivity, but we are also fracturing more and more. I'd say we're developing fewer communities and more networks.

Brooke Schnittman: 35:41

Interesting in the talk that I did talk about just having like one person who really understands you and gets you and can support you as a child or even as an adult, is life changing, especially for someone who socially isolates themselves because of coercion and bullying. I was one of those people as well, who was bullied pretty much my whole life, and I socially excluded myself because I couldn't find any friends. And going to the Blackfoot tribe model, they actually challenge Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Sure, you know this in the sense of, okay, yeah, our bellies are full, right? We're eating, we're sleeping, all of the physiological needs. But what is also, at the same time, equally important is having that connection and people who love you and support you as well. So for today, I want to leave the audience with all of the powerful information that you shared with autism, the different levels of narcissism above autism, right, the power struggles and finding your tribe. So if you were to leave one nugget that someone listening with autism, and possibly autism and ADHD, what would that be? Just one? I know that's very hard with ADHD. I don't think. I don't I don't think one person who's come on my very much entrapment. I don't think that one person who I've asked that question to has only left one nugget. So spill, spill the beans.

Dr. Sam Shay: 37:29

What I I am failing this spectrum II, Marc shack test right now. Okay, so if there's, if there's one thing, it's keep learning that way you can learn all the things there see that was just, but there's one thing just keep going in your pursuit of truth and self awareness and interconnectedness. I think that the one, the one fault I see of people going so far down the self awareness is they become, they shift from self awareness, self aware to solipsistic. And they become so self absorbed with their own I found these philosophies I'm not drying and drowning in cons and and, you know, like just, it's not like my father had over 3000 books. I know because we had to number them, and I have a better memory of this, what my father's side of his face looks like than the front of his face, because I would pretty much only see him on the computer, looking at the computer, and not at me. And that's an example of solipsism. You know, he wrote two books, ironically on the prevention of PTSD and moral injury, and he changed the entire field of psychology and psychiatry. The term moral injury is his term. He got a MacArthur Genius Award for it, and he caused moral injury in his son in the name of defining that term, which is ironic on so many levels, I respect his work, not his parenting, but to me, that's the cautionary tale that continue to learn but do not exclude the tribe in the name of your own personal journey. Whatever dragon you're trying to slay here, just don't, don't get so lost on the dragon that you ignore the rest of your tribe.

Brooke Schnittman: 39:16

Yeah, that's where the interpersonal piece comes in. Wow, I can't even begin to say how, how much is this home and how powerful this conversation is. So if someone wants to find you, where can they find you?

Dr. Sam Shay: 39:31

Dr Sam shea.com, D, R, S A M, S H A y.com, they can also go to YouTube and just put in Dr Sam Shea, again, S, H, A, y, if you go to any podcast player of any type, you'll find tons of podcasts. If you go to my YouTube channel, you also find my comedy playlist. I have a bunch of playlists on functional medicine, genetics, natural health, blah, blah, blah, but I've got comedy as well, and I've got my entire hour there, and also a 12 minute highlight reel and several other smaller clips. If. You want to have some bite size, and I cover, I cover, like dating on the spectrum, like, which is that that's always, that the audience is always loves, that where I describe, you know, what happens at a dinner date? You know when I'm in the full, full moment? Those are the three ways people can get in touch with you.

Brooke Schnittman: 40:19

Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com, and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember, it's Brooke with an E, thanks again for listening. See you next time you.