SuccessFULL With ADHD

Why Is Making Friends So Hard with ADHD? Social Skills & Communication Tips with Caroline Maguire

• Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC • Season 1 • Episode 94

Share episode

In this episode, we’re discussing important topics—social skills, friendships, and navigating communication as someone with ADHD. I’m joined by the amazing Caroline Maguire, an author, coach, TED Talk speaker, and founder of a revolutionary social emotional learning (SEL) method that helps neurodivergent individuals connect more authentically. Caroline’s insight is deeply rooted in both her personal journey and decades of professional experience supporting kids, teens, and adults with ADHD.

We unpack the real (and often painful) challenges of miscommunication, self-doubt, and finding your people when you’re neurodivergent. Caroline and I talk candidly about the paradoxes of ADHD communication, the importance of self-awareness, how we curate our friendships, and how interests can lead to connection. 

Caroline Maguire, is the founder of a revolutionary social emotional learning methodology that helps teach social skills to children, teenagers, and young adults. She holds a holds a Masters in Education degree with a concentration in SEL training and is the founder and director of The Fundamentals of ADHD Coaching for Families training curriculum at ADD Coach Academy (ADDCA). She is a former coach for the Hallowell Center in Sudbury, Massachusetts. She is the author of Why Will No One Play With Me?, the winner of the Best Parenting and Family Book 2020 as awarded by American Book Fest.

 

Episode Highlights:

[1:08] – Introducing Caroline Maguire and her extensive background in ADHD coaching and SEL.
[2:22] – Getting personal: Why I invited Caroline to talk about the communication paradox with ADHD.
[6:26] – Caroline opens up about her ongoing self-talk journey and how it still shows up today.
[8:52] – The power of understanding your brain: Why telling your child they have ADHD matters.
[11:46] – Adult friendships and trust: How to explain your traits and connect without fear.
[18:34] – Why making friends is harder for kids and how parents can support them better.
[24:52] – The big gap in school services for ADHD students when it comes to pragmatics and speech.
[32:34] – Caroline’s personal strategy to improve self-talk and own her accomplishments.
[40:03] – Embracing authenticity and navigating the workplace with ADHD.
[43:30] – What’s next for schools? And how early neurodiversity education makes a difference.
[52:07] – Helping kids embrace who they are—even when it’s not “cool.”
[54:39] – Where to find more of Caroline’s work and wisdom.

 

Connect with Caroline Maguire:

 

Thank you for tuning into "SuccessFULL with ADHD." If this episode has impacted you, remember to rate, follow, share, and review our podcast. Your support helps us reach and help more individuals navigating their journeys with ADHD.

Want to be ‘SuccessFULL with ADHD’ by Activating Your ADHD Potential?
Order our 3x best-selling book/workbook for adults with ADHD ▶️ http://bit.ly/activateadhd

Caroline Maguire:

Actually the problem, it's mismatched communication. So I am communicating, and I'm looking at social norms through a totally different lens, right? And that when you talk to a typical person, they're not expecting my view of the world, my way of communicating all the stuff we do, right? Telling stories that you know loop around and come back to the original point, but that if we explain, hey, I have ADHD, so I'm going to do this thing where I tell you a seemingly unrelated story that is somehow related to your story, they are totally fine with us. And that if we say, Hey, I have autism, I have ADHD, or even just say, I have these traits, right? If you can't disclose you're in the workplace or something, that that matching of communication needs and expectations syncs up and people are much more accepting.

Brooke Schnittman:

Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke Schmidt, let's get started. Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of successful with ADHD. Today is going to be an interesting topic that is not spoken about enough social skills, friendship and ADHD. So today I am blessed to have Carolyn McGuire, who's the founder of a revolutionary social emotional learning methodology that helps social skills to children, teenagers and young adults. And Carolyn holds a Master's in Education with a concentration in SEL which is at social emotional learning training, and is the founder and director of the fundamentals of ADHD coaching for families training curriculum at adga, which a lot of people listening have heard of or have gone through as an ADHD coach. And she's the former coach for the Halliwell center in Massachusetts. She's also the author of, why will no one play with me? And the winner of the Best parenting and family book 2020, as an awarded by American Book fast and CO collaborator on newly released How to sell.com with 1l A daily social emotional learning platform anyone can incorporate into daily life. So think she knows what she's doing. And I'm very excited that you're here today. Thank you so much. Caroline, thank

Caroline Maguire:

you so

Brooke Schnittman:

much. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, yeah. So I actually asked you to come on today for personal reasons and professional reasons. We were talking earlier, before we started filming, on how it's a paradox for people with ADHD to communicate. Yeah. Me, personally, I was bullied from age eight to 35 isolated and I couldn't work on my communication skills. So how do you help someone with ADHD who might have nuances with verbal, non verbal communication, but then doesn't have the friends to communicate with and feel trusted with.

Caroline Maguire:

It's a really big undertaking. And, you know, so one of the things I always say to families, and I say this in my book, and actually my last book, well known play with me. I think a lot of publishers wanted me to just say, like it takes six months or whatever, and I refused to put a timeline in the book, which was something I'm really glad I was steadfast about. And I don't have a timeline in my next book, which will be for adults. I don't say like this will take six months, because you're talking about deeply seated fear, right? And you know this personally, and I know this personally, that a lack of confidence in yourself, you know, a feeling that things won't work out for me, totally devastating rumination. I mean, I always say I'm a champion ruminator, like I can ruminate like no one else, and it's so much better at age 49 than it was at age 13, yeah, but when I work with kids and teenagers and young adults and adults, I'm I have to spend a lot of time building their confidence, building their trust, teaching them about their brain, having them sort of, I don't know another Word, but like demonstrate the self compassion to know that when people told you to read the room, they didn't understand, that you couldn't and you were trying to rely on traditional strategies or blog posts to do Something incredibly complicated. And so I have a very incremental, step by step approach, and a lot of times I am really working with people, just one on one, with me, and then convincing them, why don't you add to a comment in class? Why don't you, you know, speak to that person. You sit within the lunchroom every day for five minutes, like a lot of times. People's fear is so gripping that there is inherent paradox, but it does happen over time. But there's this thing that we're like boulders we're carrying, and it's it's not simple, and so I think that's a huge part of it, that, like all that stuff builds up in you. Oh yeah. And it's, it's not easy to feel that way. And and, look, I've been, I've given a TED talk, I've done all this stuff. I don't have the confidence that another person who gave a TED Talk would have because of all that stuff, I'm so much better than I was, but I still, like, I'm working on my self talk. It's like, sort of my 2025, personal journey, right? And that's partly because, like you said, you were bullied from a young age to your diagnosis. Yeah. Yeah, that that's it's all there,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, yes. So I know you said that you're working on it personally too. How does it show up for you? Now, being a quote, unquote expert in this field, working with people who have gone through similar situations, like you.

Caroline Maguire:

Yeah. So one of the things I always say, I said this for one of my keynotes, I never pretend I'm the best at this, like I still info dump inappropriately, or I still, you know, get off track or blur and interrupt, right? It's better. But I do have times or nights when I'm like, Oy, vey, like, this is back, right? But I'm the person who cares about this and thinks about it all the time and spends like, every waking minute, like, you know, I'm like, at a dinner party, watching people going like, how do you enter a group? Like, let me look at that and break it down. And for me, how it shows up is in my self talk still, and I'm working on it. And you know, I have the great fortune of being friends with, you know, Ned Hollowell and Russ Ramsey and all these amazing people. And you know, they've, they've, they'll call me on it. And so I'm really trying to not make self effacing comments anymore. I think as a Gen Xer, I was raised to sort of qualify my accomplishments. So, like, it's super uncomfortable for me to be like, Yeah, I gave a TED Talk. Like, yeah, I packed ballrooms. Like, I can't. I'm like, quivering inside, right? So, but I'm trying to do that partly because I also have a daughter who is super self confident, and I want her to be that way. I don't want her to be, you know, disqualifying herself, or feeling worried every time she opens her mouth at a social event, the way a lot of us were, and I don't want my clients. I don't want the people who watch me. I want everyone to feel good and confident.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, does your daughter have ADHD? My

Caroline Maguire:

daughter does have ADHD. She was actually in a how to ADHD video a couple months ago where she talked about, like, what it's like to be a teenager with ADHD, which we debated about, but she really, really wanted to do it, because she's very out. She, you know, it's different generations. She's like, Hey, if you don't like this,

Brooke Schnittman:

it's too bad. This is me. This is me. You know, when

Caroline Maguire:

I watch her, I'm a Gog, because at her age, I was definitely not where she is. I didn't know about my ADHD, you know, that's a huge difference, right? I think that knowledge of who I am and how my brain works, I think it's so powerful.

Brooke Schnittman:

Oh, yeah, and that's the double. I mean, it's the contradiction that I hear from so many parents, do I tell my child that they have ADHD or not? I mean, my answer is almost astoundingly Yes, and make sure that you get coach somehow on how to tell them they have ADHD and what their gifts are and what it could look like as well, and what their struggles could look like, and how you know they're different, just like everyone has a different brain, right?

Caroline Maguire:

I absolutely agree, I and also, there's a lot of research that's come out that shows that the the model of pathologizing us and and autistic folks was wrong, and that actually the problem isn't it's a mix. It's mismatched communication. So I am communicating, and I'm looking at social norms through a totally different lens, right? And that when you talk to a typical person, they're not expecting my view of the world, my way of communicating. All the stuff we do, right, telling stories that you know, loop around and come back to the original point, but that if we explain, hey, I have ADHD, so I'm going to do this thing where I tell you a seemingly unrelated story that is somehow related to your story. They are totally fine with us, and that it is, in fact, that unexpected thing where they're like, What is this that is one of the biggest problems, and that if we say, Hey, I have autism, I have ADHD, or even just say, I have these traits, right? If you can't disclose you're in the workplace or something, yep, that that matching of communication needs and expectations syncs up, and people are much more accepting. So I'm now like, Oh, my God. What does this teach us? This teaches us we have to do what I call communisation, where you just explain your point of view, explain your needs. Be like, Hey, I'm Brooke, and this is what I do, instead of, like, hiding. And if you can't say your diagnosis, and I get this workplaces, some aren't very favorable, like, just say I have this trait. I am easily distracted. You know, I I might tell you a story that seems a little odd, but I promise like there's a reason why I'm telling you this story. You know,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, yeah, I don't claim to be the most confident person. In fact, I'm still working on my confidence every day, but literally, until the last five years, because I got diagnosed five years ago, even though I was working with ADHD for 20 years. Um, I right happened. Go figure. Go figure. It happened.

Caroline Maguire:

I

Brooke Schnittman:

really didn't understand how to connect and attract friends that were right for me or a partner that was right for me, and I know you're writing this book for adults now, and I'm sure a lot of them are in the situation that they were in childhood, and it's probably even more debilitating now as an adult, Knowing that you're still struggling with making friends that you can trust and you can communicate or explain to where there's no judgment, right? So how does someone get to the point of being able to comfortably explain, hey, I have these traits, or hey, I have ADHD, and I'm going to explain, but there's a reason because it's going to connect with your story. So please just be patient with me.

Caroline Maguire:

So there's a couple things. I think one of the things that has to shift for us friendship wise, is that instead of pushing we have to use interest right, and we have to use our special interests. And I think that we feel this mysterious thing of, oh, there's no people. My people aren't out there. I feel very alienated from people, and that's so hard, because our people are out there. Everybody can find people, right? But that connection we're searching for is a very deep connection, often, like, often people write me or tell me, like, I have so many acquaintances. I need real friends. I need deeper connection. So I think our interest is the number one way that I help people make friends, like doing things that are of high interest to you. And I think that helps build confidence, because I don't know if you remember the first time you were in a room full of people, or in a zoom or whatever, who had your like mindset? But it, it is so empowering. You know, I just feel like, there's so many times when I feel like, huh, am I the only one who thinks this? And then when you're with other people who think it, you're like, oh, yeah, we both think this, right? Yes. And then I think building on that, I think just expressing your needs is an easy way to start, right? So if you you're like, I'm not sure I can say I have ADHD, or I don't know how this will be received. Right, to just say, like, I need to understand where we're going and the details, because I'm super concrete and so just saying, like, we'll get together is hard for me. That's like, to me, the the base of the community installation. Just what are your needs, right? Yeah. And for you know, a lot of people tell me that they literally will, like, draw out or write out, like every store they're gonna go into, if they're going shopping with someone, or every aspect, or they're looking up the menu, they're looking up the dress code, and it's because they are people who need more detail. You know, I am logistically challenged. I have dyslexia, and I'm telling you, logistics are like, not my friend. Have, like, such a hard time driving places. I I don't retain stuff. So if you're a visual person, yeah, like, if I only go somewhere three times a year, I, like, don't retain how to get there. Thank God for GPS. But like, if I were, were going someplace with you, and it was totally like, Oh, I'm going into a city, or I'm, you know, doing such and such, I would, I would just say, Hey, I have dyslexia. And, like, I get really turned around. So, like, you know, can you just give me a little more information? Or I would look it up. And I think when you express your needs, it's a little safer because you're not giving a diagnostic label. When I started 20 years ago, I've been coaching for 20 years now. Officially, Brooke, amazing. It's so crazy you couldn't say a diagnostic label. No. So, so, like, I feel like, that's very comfortable, you know, I'm very comfortable when people say, you know, in my state, in my town, in my country, I can't I'm like, great. Just say your needs. Like, I need to know more. I need to process this out loud. Yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

it's so interesting because, I mean, I see a therapist, and I see lots of different types of therapists and and

Caroline Maguire:

I'm all for having support and services in a circle. Yeah, I think it's great.

Brooke Schnittman:

But, like, the key, besides being empathetic in a conversation, the takeaway that I always get is like, what are you looking to get out of this conversation? Like, what is the need? So share your need first and then work backwards.

Caroline Maguire:

Yes. And I think for ADHD people, you get, I'm going to say something revolutionary. You get to curate your friendships, fascinating idea, right? You get to decide who you're friends with, right? You get to not be friends with people. You get to de friends people. You get to say you don't treat me, right? I don't feel good when I leave you at the end of the night. We're not going to be friends. I'm not going to like scorched earth, but I'm not also going to be friends with you. You get to set friendship goals. So I think we're taught like, take all you can get. Like, settle, no, because when you settle, you inherently are more bored because you're with people who aren't your people who aren't interesting. Like, I set a personal goal this year where I was like, You know what? I am happier when I am with super interesting people, virtual or in person, who are doing interesting things. That's how I'm going to spend my time, right? Yeah, I love that you get to curate, that you don't have to take. I feel like we're sent the message like, take what you can get. Yeah?

Brooke Schnittman:

But, you know, it's interesting, speaking of interesting, I love that. And when you're a kid, and I could speak personally and for clients that I've seen, interesting people are sometimes not the best of friends, too,

Caroline Maguire:

yeah, yeah. I think it's different for kids, you know, like there's this whole movement of belonging. For adults, like we want to feel belonging, we don't want to fit in, right? But kids, it's different, right? Because part of being in elementary school, being in middle school, is figuring out the landscape, and in some cases, you know, trying to figure out, how do I navigate this, right? And I think the hardest part about middle school, elementary High School, you're, you're limited in your pool, right? Like you're not

Brooke Schnittman:

only have what you see at school or your activities. Yeah,

Caroline Maguire:

exactly. And we try to widen that, like, there's virtual things, there's, you know, activities in the next town where that might be like your people, but I think you're right. I think that that's a different it is different for kids, and that's why I'm so sympathetic to kids, because I feel like, you know, they can't get away from people. Like, if you were bullied in your workplace now, right? You'd just be like, Well, I am not going to work here anymore. I'm going to find another job.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yes, no, I wouldn't take it. I mean, that's why I left one of my last jobs. Yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take this anymore. Yeah,

Caroline Maguire:

right. So I think it's so different for kids, and that's why I'm so passionate about helping kids. Because I feel like, I remember that feeling, I remember that feeling of just being like, I am stuck, yeah? And it's why I live my life, not stuck, you know, like I live my life that like never going to be stuck again, which, you know it is because I get to choose, because I'm an adult,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah? Now I'm jumping around here because I know we're talking about children and adults, and adults, and we're going back and forth, but if we could bring it back to the children for a second. So yeah, when I used to be a teacher, I can't even tell you how many times parents would say to me, Hey, Brooke, can you just check on so and so in the cafeteria, I want to make sure that you. Sitting next to a bunch of people and he's talking to them, yes, right? And this person had ADHD, also ASD, but I also experienced that with people who only had an ADHD diagnosis, so right? You're battling that sometimes as a parent, yeah, because you have the pressure right of like, wanting your child to fit in and as the educator or the the service provider, someone in the school right, like you just want the child to have the right friends and have skills to be able to communicate their wants and their needs, right? So how do you balance something like that for like how do you actually give practical tools?

Caroline Maguire:

So one of the biggest things that I will say is that there are always people willing to help, and I think parents reaching out to a coach, reaching out to someone like you, trying to find out the landscape. You know, sometimes there's an inherent problem where kids become so self conscious, they don't tell their parents. You know, I'm I many times have met with a client, parents say, oh, you know, she goes to lunch, but she hates it. I meet with a client for a few weeks, and I'm like, this kid is not going lunch. This kid is not that kid has not been inside that lunchroom in weeks. And so reaching out to, you know, coaches asking a sibling, like, I need you to be kind. This isn't something I need you to report on. I need you to not, you know, ever tease your sibling about this, but like, spy for me be a social spy and go and look, look what's going on. I think that there's people willing to tell you, like you used to tell those parents. And then I have kids make like a little sociogram, and we first start with the flavors of friendship, where I teach them about the different levels of friendship, because a lot of times ADHD people, we rush into friendship, and we attribute the characteristics of a friend to someone who's really an acquaintance, yeah, and then we're disappointed, because like Brooke, like you're my friend, I thought you would do this for me, and you're like, right? I'm not your friend, I'm your acquaintance, right, right? So we learn about that, and then we make like a like, you know, draw me everyone who's in your world, right? And then we're start to try to figure out, like, who are there people, who are the kids that they could connect with? What could they join that are high interest, highly interactive activities, right, where they get to be in the trenches and be with other kids. And we simultaneously are working on those skills. How do you make conversation? How do you talk to people? How do you start a conversation? Mm, hmm, but I'm but I, I agree with you. I first need to know, like, are they entering the cafeteria? Are they sitting alone? Are they hiding in the bathroom? That's something I used to totally do. Like, same, yeah. What's, what's going on for them,

Brooke Schnittman:

where they have a quiet lunch, or they eat with their teacher, right? Yep,

Caroline Maguire:

eat with a teacher. Reading got through like most of Dickens in sixth grade. I was like, really as a dyslexic child, as a dyslexic child, because once I could read, I could I could read pretty well. I'm an only child, okay? And my I went to my grandparents house every afternoon, and so like I was reading old people books. I wasn't I wasn't with other kids. That's the other thing. I wasn't with other kids. I didn't know how to relate to other kids. And the funny thing about life is you learn how to do that, and then as you're as you're a mature person, it's okay to be an old soul,

Brooke Schnittman:

exactly, but it's not supported when you're a child. What is unless it's from an adult?

Caroline Maguire:

Yeah, exactly. The adults probably like to they love it.

Brooke Schnittman:

You related very well to adults, right? Like that, literally should be a check mark on ADHD relates well to adults more than children, yeah,

Caroline Maguire:

because adults were more straightforward and more compassionate, I think, yeah, yeah.

Brooke Schnittman:

And how do we break that barrier to I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I have recommended a social skills group for an ADHD student and parents, you know, we have been ingrained No, that's for ASD or, you know, people with like who really don't understand social nuances. And one other thing in school, both of us were in the school system, so children with ADHD aren't necessarily getting speech and language for pragmatics, because they don't qualify for that, because they don't technically have a delay in what is tested in speech and language.

Caroline Maguire:

Yeah, so there's a bunch of big problems that I have with everything that goes on. First all, the research shows we do. Have problems, as many problems as other diagnoses. So we should be getting and one of my personal goals is, you know, when you get an autism diagnosis, and I'm not saying this shouldn't be this way, because I work with a ton of you know, kids on the spectrum. I love them, but you get services and support, and the way they talk to you is different. Yes, you know, like when, when you get an ADHD diagnosis for a kid, they're like, very wishy washy to me, they're not like, you must do this. When you get an autism diagnosis, they're like, you know, you have to do this whole kitchen sink. Very, very, you know, bad rates of depression if you don't do these things. And there's very bad rates of depression if we don't do these things, right? So that's one two. I have even seen people turn down speech for kids, and I don't really understand why. I also see them turn down social groups, and I think part of it is there's two fold 50% of people with social struggles have a parent with social struggles. So I think there's a couple things going on. I have many clients who are like, I am here because I struggled, and I do not want this child to struggle, and I see them struggling. I also think there are parents who self awareness is low and they don't realize or it's so painful. I mean, I've had times where I give a speech. You know, the book is for sale at the back of the room, someone stands up and they tell, like, a harrowing story, like terrible story, about their kids struggles at a school or something, and when it comes time to buy why Will no one play with me? They don't buy it. And I think it's that they're embarrassed, like they're embarrassed to get in line. They're embarrassed to say this is a thing, because people have come out to me and said, I just want you to know I bought your book on Amazon, but I couldn't buy it in front of all those people, or I didn't want to admit this, and three years later, I did. I think it's very hard for parents because they feel so little path forward, and that's why I do what I do, because I want people to feel there's a path forward. Yeah, like, It annoys me that we tell people to read the room, and yet, until I invented the reading the room, stuff that Tim Wyl known play with me, there was no not in any social skills curriculum. There was no comprehensive step by step, way to read the room, but you kept yelling at people to read the room. Yes, that's kind of me, don't you think? Yes, I

Brooke Schnittman:

can't even tell you the negative messages I received as a kid. Why are you so sensitive? Brooke, like, I know That's so cliche at this point to hear as someone as an ADHD or but like, legitimately, that was the message I kept getting. You're so sensitive, right? And I am, no,

Caroline Maguire:

you're so sensitive. So I didn't get I'm so sensitive because I'm not as sensitive, but I got, you're so intense, like I am an intense person. I'm a force of nature. I get stuff done exactly like I do. I'm not embarrassed of it. As an adult, I get that. It can be a lot, and I think I've learned to modulate my emotions and stuff. But I think as a kid, what I got most was like, don't worry so much. Don't be so intense. You know? Why don't you relax? And I was like, I'm not going to

Brooke Schnittman:

relax. Well, thank you for telling me that, because now, now I'm relaxed, because you told me I should just relax.

Caroline Maguire:

Yeah, exactly. Um, so I think, like, that's part of it. I i am so worried always when people turn down speech services, I know because, you know, it's not my my background, but I'm a huge fan, and it's so important.

Brooke Schnittman:

And I think we also have to recognize that there's so many different types of speech. Just because you're in speech doesn't mean that you have a hearing problem. It doesn't mean that you can't explain something. It doesn't mean that you can't process something. Like there's all these different areas of speech, and you and I were talking before we got on, like I had speech and language because I was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder as a child, my mom didn't want me to have it in school. She was an educator too, so we did a private because she didn't want anyone to know and she didn't want me to miss anything, right? And then later on, as a teenager, my dad told me you should really do a communications class, Brooke, like to work on your communication. And I got so offended. I got so offended, like you're telling me I can't communicate. And then I had one parent who, like, agreed with that, right? So I never did it. I wish I did, but, yeah. Had such a negative connotation in my mind, at

Caroline Maguire:

least well. And I think there's a way to say things that aren't quite so jarring. You know, I always say a friend of mine said this to me when I was writing while no play with me. She said, everyone is working on something. And I love that sentiment, and I I also what I want. When last time I went to New York. And I went to hechet, the publisher, my publisher. I stood in this rotunda, and there was just books, floor to ceiling, and so many of them were self help. And so I took pictures, and when I came back, I showed them to some kids I was working with, and I said, Look at this. These are all self help books, and they're all about, like, communication, shifting, all this, they sell millions of copies, so millions of people are engaging in this. And basically, like, people have said this to you in a very pejorative way, right? They've said this to you in a very like, mean way. And so I get it, you're shut down to this idea because, like, you know, they didn't say it very nice, but everyone is working on stuff, and I don't think there's any shame I personally am a personal growth person. I don't think there's any shame in me saying to you, like, Oh, I'm working on my self talk this year, because I think it's a good thing. It doesn't mean I'm masking right? Because, like, I'm pretty much who I am all the time, and

Brooke Schnittman:

you disclose, and you and you pre qualify the the conversation by saying I have ADHD, and I'm probably going to circle until I get to the point, right?

Caroline Maguire:

But I also do want to feel better, like I would love someday to feel as good as people think I probably feel right, like I'd love those to match. I'd love to feel as confident. And so that's to me, personal growth.

Brooke Schnittman:

Okay, so in first of all, I just want to recognize the picture that you're painting for these children that you are working with to show them, like, a million books sold for self help. Like, how powerful is that? Rather than saying you're not alone or there's other people who need help, millions of these self help books are being sold. That just shows how many people want it and need it and are working on themselves. So kudos to you. That's a great you know, way of explaining that. And then, second of all, how are you going to work on yourself? Talk through a personal growth lens. What do you plan on doing?

Caroline Maguire:

Okay, so one of the steps is to identify. So I spent most of last year, like every time I disqualified myself or said something self effacing, which was how I was brought up. I was brought up to always qualify what you say and to self efface. And so whenever I caught myself and identify that I was doing that, I would then get to the second step, which is like to basically either sort of reframe it or stop it, or sort of catch yourself midstream. Because part of when you're doing anything like this, like this kind of personal change, you you have to identify that this is problem, and then you have to start catching yourself in the moment. And sometimes it's out of your mouth, like it's done, but just being aware is a big piece, and now what I've done is I have been not saying it, even when I feel like I am going to explode, because it's so uncomfortable for me. And I have really been trying to say my accomplishments. And I have to admit to you, the person helping me the most with this is Ned Hollowell. He was immensely supportive and helpful for me getting the adult book deal. I have no problem saying that to anyone. He's great. He was amazingly supportive, and he talked to me a ton about the journey. And we have these like cathartic talks we always have. And so there's a lot of research that the more you distance yourself. You don't say, I with self talk. You say like, this is what we're doing. You know, you put it in the third person, then you are. It's less shaming and it's less hurtful and painful, even if you say things that aren't necessarily what you know you want to say, right, even if your self talk isn't like, Yay, Caroline, yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah. Well, that makes so much sense, because if you're talking to someone and you're upset about something, quote, unquote, they did, if you keep saying, Well, you did this, you did this, it's almost like saying, Well, I can't believe I did this, right, right? It has the same weight. So if you put it into third person for yourself, just like you do when you're talking to someone else and not accusing them, right, right?

Caroline Maguire:

It's really important for people to understand, like we're all on this journey, and if we've been diagnosed at age five, maybe things will be different, but because we weren't, you. You know, we're all sort of having this journey of self discovery and trying to feel better understand ourselves, all that stuff. And, you know, I think there's a lot more coming out about ADHD in women, yeah, and I think there's a lot more recognition that, you know, our the social norms and expectations for women, especially those of us you know, north of 40 were very different. And so a lot of the sort of chastising that you were describing and things that went on, but those negative messages, I think some of it was like, why can't you be a nice little girl who does everything we want you to do? And I think a lot of us are trying to, like, be more empowered. Yep,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, yeah, we are. We want to be confident. We want to be empowered. We want to be in control of our destiny, really, yeah, and I know we can't control everything in life, but we want to be in control as much as possible with ourselves. So I love that now switching it to adults with communication and social skills, how do you then, with all of these years of compacted shame and potential CPTSD and not working on their communication skills. How do you work with an adult who is so deeply ingrained in shame in their communication skills?

Caroline Maguire:

I think the first thing I always start with is strengths, because I think that we have things we can do that no one else can do. I had a boss who used to see. Say, I saw the forest through the trees, and she meant it in a good way, like that. I have this power to see things that no one else sees, and I think all of us have a power. Some adults are are very sensitive, but that means that they're in tune to the vibe and the energy in a room. Some people see patterns. I wouldn't notice a detail if it was like, literally in front of my face, like I have no detail orientation. But a lot of my clients are very concrete thinkers, and they have tremendous detail orientation. They can see patterns. So I think the first thing is to show them their strengths, and also show it from a neuro divergent lens, like you do things differently and like, let's come to acceptance of that, right? Like, you have a different brain, your approach, your communication, your view of the world is different. Yeah, that's awesome, because that's who solves crises, puts rockets on the moon. Like, that's who does it. It's not typical people who live books, right? It's not, it's like, typical people don't solve crisises and extraordinary people solve crisis Yes,

Brooke Schnittman:

yes. And I think it's just so funny that we're still using that language typical, when the typical brain is not so typical. It's like 25% of people, right,

Caroline Maguire:

but I think the perception among adults, because they people have been so hurt and injured and criticized, isn't, why are we still doing this? This is so bonkers. It's, I wish I could be more like them, yeah? And I get that because I've been there, right? I used to, my dad would say, you're creative and you're this great, you know, I did a lot of drama, like, you're this great actress. And I would be like, and I would trade it all for, like, high SAT scores, right? And my dad was like, that's crazy, you know, like, my parents were actually kind of very neuro affirming in their own way. Like, maybe not so good on the, you know, making me qualify things. But my dad was very, is a salesman, and so he was very like, you know, why do you want to live in a box kind of thing? And so I definitely think that that shifting of your mind to sort of more self acceptance and to know your strengths is the first thing to understand your brain. And then like to go on a journey of, what do I want out of friendship and most, by the way, adults that I work with and I've done groups, because people said you couldn't do social skills groups for adults, and so I was like, oh, no, I have to do that. I'm gonna

Brooke Schnittman:

challenge this now,

Caroline Maguire:

like, most of them don't believe me at first, by the way. Like, when I'm like, you can curate your own friendships. You can make it what you want. You don't have to take second fiddle. They don't believe me. Like, I don't want people at home to say, Well, I wouldn't believe her. No, like, they don't believe me, they're like, You're crazy, Carolyn, but over time, I think as you come to understand your brain more, you come to understand that, like you spent all these years trying to be like everyone else, and it didn't work. So like, what if. Tried being like yourself.

Brooke Schnittman:

I can't even tell you I was, and I still sometimes catch myself being like that, right, like, you know, just fitting in, right, quote, unquote. And then, you know, over time, I get more comfortable, and I start being myself, right? And it either works or it hard stops, right? And the sometimes it's like, very off putting for the other person. They're like, wow, you know, Boba, I'm like, No, I'm finally expressing myself, and, like, being who I am. You might not like that, you know.

Caroline Maguire:

And I think you know this, and I know this like, I think there's a difference to me between like, I say every thought that comes in my brain, even when it's unkind, right? I think like, I think the whole masking debate is great, and I think it's great that we're talking about authenticity, and I've been talking about it for a long time. So I'm like, Hey, yay. But I do think there's a distinction, like, I still have to adapt. I'm assuming, oh yes, blunt person, right? Like original Caroline. She was blonde, she said, whatever came into her head. We're speaking

Brooke Schnittman:

in third person right now,

Caroline Maguire:

but, but I, I learned that that hurts people, right? That alienates people, right? So, and it's not just like I don't want to I'm not not being blunt to fit in or to mask. I'm doing it because I don't want to hurt people like that's not who I am. So I think there's a there's a distinction here. It's not that you don't adapt, but whoever your values are, your personality, your sense of humor, that's your authentic self, and that's what we want to see shine. And when I watch your videos, I do see it shine. Oh, thanks.

Brooke Schnittman:

I need some more positive reinforcement. What else did you see? Thanks to Dr Hallowell, no, I'm kidding. Okay,

Caroline Maguire:

I see you. I see you asking really smart questions. I think you have a very curious brain, and I think that that is an absolute superpower, and I'm always struggling when people aren't curious, like, I don't understand you because I am so curious. Like, there are things I'm just like burning to know. You know, I

Brooke Schnittman:

think that so many of us are curious, but we've have been shut down and being been told to shut up and just follow the directions. I think that's the problem.

Caroline Maguire:

The other thing I was gonna say, Marc is I work with people a lot on curating their environment, and I think that's a difference too. Like when you were receiving those negative messages, when you didn't feel like curiosity was good, you were always probably trying to fit into an environment that people said you should be in, versus, like, saying, you know, I need to work for a tech company where, like, Curiosity is, like a good thing, or I need to work for myself. Or, you know, as a kid, I need to go to a different school where, like, people are curious and like it's science school, and like everybody's looking into problems, like, maybe it's that the environment needs to change so that it is more supportive. And sometimes you gotta, like, drive a half an hour and it stinks. And believe me, as a mom, I've done it, but it's better to drive a half an hour and have somebody pumping your kid up and not deflating their balloon. 100% 100%

Brooke Schnittman:

I'm getting chills listening to all this. Um, what do you think is next for school systems? Because that's really where it all starts, right? It's at home and at school. Sel is pushed into the schools. It's actually a requirement, right? So olveas is in a lot of schools. I know you have an SEL program. You

Caroline Maguire:

know, all the bullying education that doesn't really work, as far as I'm concerned, but one thing that does work is all of the education around inclusivity and around neuro diversity, and that has been shown to work, that if you educate kids about different brains, neuro tribes, all that stuff, that that actually has a great impact in the school. I think it that is a big push to get them to educate, you know, starting Elementary and going up, and to share that kind of information with kids, so that kids great better understand and whenever I see it done, it's like mind blowing, the effect. And so I think that would really matter, because then they wouldn't be like, Why is Brooke doing that? They'd be like, oh, people with ADHD do that. Yeah, you know,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, you can tell a trained student about neurodiversity compared to students who are not trained. Yes, I noticed. Like the communication and the awareness exactly like you're saying. And then I guess one other thing, because we haven't spoken too much about it, is for an adult in the workplace, how do you support them in expressing their needs, right and making sure that they also feel safe. And

Caroline Maguire:

I think it's a case by case basis, right? You know, I think that when people talk in sweeping terms, it kind of makes me nervous. So, you know, if I'm on Instagram or whatever and I'm watching and someone's like, you know, you just gonna march into your boss's office and say, no,

Unknown:

no, no, no, no, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you know. And

Caroline Maguire:

so I think that is a totally case by case basis. I think sometimes people have to buy their time. I think sometimes people are like, I'm gonna finish my degree, or I'm gonna finish this certification, or I'm gonna get these two years of experience, and then I'm gonna try to get into a company that is more neuro affirming or is more inclusive. And a lot of cases, companies are talking the talk, but they're not walking the walk, and it is just, it's part of our fairness thing with ADHD, it just like, annoys me, like when I'm, you know, working with certain companies, and they're telling the world in Forbes magazine how neuro affirming they are, and my clients are experiencing like a horror show. I'm like, Oh, I really want to call Forbes and talk me out, but I could never do

Brooke Schnittman:

liar. I have to, I have to be honest that, like the companies that I've worked with, granted, it was the neuro inclusivity team, right? The neurodiversity team have been so neuro affirming with me. That's

Caroline Maguire:

the thing. If they have that, and they really walk the walk, they walk it so, so wonderful, and they're great. It's like universities, some colleges do a great job, and they're like, whatever you need. Like, I just one of my clients, who's at university, they just, like, reached out to her and said, Hey, like, we want you to know, like, last semester you didn't come to us soon enough. Like, let's have a meeting first week of school. Let's not wait. Amazing, right? And then others, I'm like, these parents are paying extra money for your services, and you're doing zipity dot, right? So I think, like, if they walk the walk, it's great. And I think people have to have language to express their needs. And to me, they have to find the right boss, yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, because you could work for the right company, but if you don't have the right boss, then nothing matters, because that's the person you report to

Caroline Maguire:

absolutely,

Brooke Schnittman:

100% I heard a lot of really great suggestions about, you know, starting with awareness and awareness coming from both sides, people that are in the school system with you, Being aware of neuro diverse brains having neuro affirming bosses and workplaces, and also you being aware of your strengths and your needs. So with more awareness, then starts the talk and the journey of confidence in the self talk and in the communication and in the social skills. Would you say that? That's pretty much what you're saying, yeah.

Caroline Maguire:

And I would add one thing, drama saved me so, you know, horribly bullied, physically, verbally, everything. And sorry. Oh, that's okay. I mean, I think it made me who I am. You know, I wouldn't want anyone else to go through it, but I think I've tried to make lemonade from the lemons. But drama saved me, because every day, at 330 no matter how things had gone, I got to get on the stage, and I got to travel, and I got to go to drama camps, and I got to do all these amazing things. And so I would add, do something in your house of strengths every day that makes you feel really good, because you know you're on a journey. And sometimes, whether you're a kid or an adult, when you're on that journey, you're you're changing your environment, you're changing your boss, you're changing things. And it takes time, but if you have something you do every day that you are, like, really good at it. And let's face it, we have stuff we're really good at, right? Oh yeah, crazy good at then you feel better about you, yes, but there's this whole social element in the bullpen where they're playing cards and they're talking, and some of my little friends don't know how to do that, so like, if that's the case. I'm helping them if they're playing hockey, I'm helping them with the bench, you know. And I was a drama kid, so I'm a huge advocate of drama, because I again, think it's a very like, in many cases, inclusive, fun, very neuro affirming group, lots of quirky other kids, lots of kids with ADHD, but there's backstage and there's waiting to go on. And there's, you know, events after and before the play. So we're helping you to navigate all that, but, you know, just allowing you to find groups like that where they're much more supportive, definitely

Brooke Schnittman:

that interest piece in shining and being able to connect with someone in a different way, like even adults do. I mean, I literally just got off the call with a a woman who just sent her two kids to college, and she's like, Okay, I'm an empty nester. What do I do now? Like I have social anxiety and I don't know what to do with my life. I'm like, Okay, let's find something that you enjoy to connect with other people, since your core value is connection like that will eliminate some of that social anxiety slightly, because you have something to talk about now,

Caroline Maguire:

right? Absolutely, and I think that's the thing, interest is our fuel, so we have to go with what interests us and not what we think we should be interested in,

Brooke Schnittman:

yes, yes, oh my gosh. There's so many like parallels that I want to just say, but I know we're out of time. So okay, fine. I'm gonna say one more thing. I know. I know come back, but I do have one more thing to share. I have two stepsons, both with ADHD. One is like the soccer star, right? The other one is the brainiac, and he so badly wants to be the soccer star, but my husband and I were talking about this other day. It's like if we could just harness his strengths and have his confidence and prove in those strengths, but think he's too insecure to really share what it is that he's interested in, because it's not the quote unquote cool thing. I don't know if people use that anywhere more, but you know to do so, yeah, to your point to like, try to capture that and also make it okay to do whatever you're interested in.

Caroline Maguire:

Yeah. And I definitely think, like, you know, a lot of times kids, you know, I'll say, why don't you do this? And they're like, I'm I don't want to be that person. Like, there's a lack of self acceptance. I think also when kids are really, really gifted, sometimes they don't relate to kids, their age, their vocabulary, their thought patterns, all their stuff is like, much more mature. And there's another syndrome you're describing, which I call love, the one you're with, which is that sometimes you know, my quirky, you know, kids want to be with, like the basketball stars, and I'm like, but that's not your people you know. Like, fine to be with basketball stars if they're your people, but those aren't your people. And there's this desire to be something other than who you are. And so I think part of this is like, I call them like gateways, like, what's, you know, in between, basketball star, soccer star, and, like, the super nerdy, niche thing that you know they would really benefit from, like, head of the Dungeons and Dragons club, you figure out, like something that's in between that might be like a place they can thrive. And as they thrive more they get more self acceptance. As they get more self acceptance, you know, because I have kids who literally say, you know, if you bring up X, Y and Z topic, like, I will shut my computer and we will be done, and we will not talk again. And so I can't bring up those subjects. I have to, like, dance.

Unknown:

You're good at that now,

Caroline Maguire:

yeah, I get it. Because I don't think I wanted to be the person I was in seventh grade. I wanted to be like, you know, someone else, yeah. And so I do understand, yeah, you know, I don't. I think the self acceptance I have now I didn't have it. No,

Brooke Schnittman:

no, I know. I know. Well, thank you so much, and I definitely want to bring you back, because we have a lot that we can talk about, and I'm sure after this episode gets released, there's going to be more questions that our listeners have to ask about social skills and communication. I mean, it's literally, it's pretty much everything that we do, verbal, non verbal. It's all communication. So thank you for your time. And where can people find you if they want more tips on social skills and communication? My

Caroline Maguire:

website is Caroline McGuire, author com. And my instagram handle is at author, Caroline M I am doing YouTube now too. Where? Because I'm making videos that are longer form about all this stuff.

Brooke Schnittman:

Love it. Okay, well, we have lots of places where we could grab some of your valuable information. I can't wait for your book. To come out in 2026 so yay to that your work is so needed, and thank you for your time on successful with ADHD. Really appreciate it. No,

Caroline Maguire:

this is fun. Thanks

Brooke Schnittman:

for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us@coachingwithbrooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember, it's Brooke with an E. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC

Host