SuccessFULL With ADHD

Sleep, Drink, Breathe with The Sleep Doctor

• Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC • Season 1 • Episode 84

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Today, I sit down once again with Dr. Michael J. Breus, a celebrated sleep expert and clinical psychologist, to dive into the essentials of wellness through the lens of his upcoming book, Sleep, Drink, Breathe. Known widely as "The Sleep Doctor," Dr. Breus brings a wealth of expertise and empathy, particularly valuable for those of us navigating life with ADHD. We discuss how the basics—sleep, hydration, and breathing—serve as critical "dominoes" in wellness, and explore how these essentials impact focus, energy, and daily rhythms for ADHD individuals and beyond. Join us for a refreshing conversation on taking control of your health by simplifying wellness in today’s complex world.

Dr. Breus and I cover everything from managing sleep patterns and hydration tips to specific breathing exercises that can help with stress and energy management. With actionable insights tailored to the ADHD community, this episode is all about finding balance without overcomplicating wellness. Tune in to learn more about Dr. Breus's simple yet transformative approach to building better health habits.

Dr. Michael J. Breus, Ph.D., renowned as The Sleep Doctor™, is a double board-certified Clinical Psychologist and Clinical Sleep Specialist. Distinguished as one of only 168 psychologists globally to pass the Sleep Medicine Boards without Medical School, he's the acclaimed author of the bio-hacking masterpiece "The Power of When." This groundbreaking work deciphers the science of optimal timing based on one's biological chronotype. With 23 years in private practice, Dr. Breus has been an expert voice in over 400 annual interviews, spanning media outlets like Oprah and The Doctors, and was recently named the Top Sleep Doctor of Los Angeles by Readers Digest.

 

Episode Highlights:
[02:17] - Welcoming back Dr. Michael J. Breus, introducing his new book Sleep, Drink, Breathe.
[05:00] - The "dominoes of wellness": why sleep, hydration, and breathing matter most.
[08:00] - Addressing ADHD and the impact of sleep disorders on focus and mental clarity.
[13:49] - Caffeine and ADHD: tips for timing and managing intake for better rest.
[18:02] - Hydration strategies, including balancing electrolytes and managing "hydration multipliers".
[27:20] - Navigating dry mouth and appetite effects from ADHD medication.
[29:11] - Consistent wake times for better ADHD management and improved energy.
[35:05] - Napping, non-sleep deep rest (NSDR), and their restorative benefits.
[47:26] - Breathing techniques like 4-7-8 breathing and their role in calming the mind.
[54:39] - How to preorder Dr. Breus's book and access exclusive wellness content.

 

Connect with Dr. Michael J. Breus:

 

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Brooke Schnittman:

With ADHD, we are one big paradox, right? Like,

Unknown:

oh my gosh, yes.

Brooke Schnittman:

We know we need reliable sleep, we know we need to drink water, we know we need to breathe, and we get so hyper focused that we forget to drink, or our medication is keeping us hyper focused that we forget to eat, we forget to drink, or the stimulants not wearing off in time, or we have restless leg syndrome, or we have anxiety, or we think about all the things that we didn't accomplish, or the things that we need to next day.

Dr. Michael Breus:

It's really important for this group of people in particular to really have a system, some guide rails, like some thoughts about, what do I need to do for sleep? What can I do that makes intuitive sense. Now, what can I do for hydration? Now? What can I do for breathing? Now, to help me,

Brooke Schnittman:

welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke Schmidt, let's get started. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of successful with ADHD. Today. I have a not new. Guest, Dr, Michael, Bruce, old guest, old guest, seasoned. GUEST, however you want to put it like that seasoned season, that seasons seasoned, we know, with the ADHD community and with every human being that sleep impacts everything. So it was to no surprise that our first episode did really well. Introduce yay. To reintroduce Dr Bruce. He is a clinical psychologist and a diplomat of the American Board of Sleep Medicine and a fellow of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. He is one of only 168 psychologists in the world to have passed the sleep medical specialty board without going to medical school. That's pretty cool. Dr Bruce, he said a lot more than that. He was recently named the top sleep specialist in California by reader digest, and one of the 10 most influential people in sleep and he's on the clinical advisory board of the Dr Oz Show, and was on the show 40 times, and he's been on a lot of other shows. He's wrote a lot of amazing books about sleep, and we're here going to talk about his new book. Do you want to introduce that?

Dr. Michael Breus:

Absolutely, absolutely. Hey, everyone out there, I've got a new book out. Ooh.

Michael J Breus:

Sleep, drink, breathe, hold on and move the microphone so you can see it better. Sleep, drink, breathe. I think wellness has gotten too complicated, right? Like, here's the problem, I talk to people all the time, like, I'm at the gym constantly because I'm a gym rat. I go there every day, and, you know, people don't know I'm a sleep doctor, so they're always coming up to me, asking me things, and they're like, me things, and they're like, hey, what sauna should I buy, or what green drink should I have? Meanwhile, they haven't had a sip of water for their entire workout. They look like a raisin. They're about to fall over because and they don't even get it. And so for me, it's really about trying to figure out, like, how can I figure out? Like, sort of, what are the what's the DNA of wellness? Like, what are the basic things that if you do them, it will help so many other things? Now, obviously, I'm a little biased when it comes to sleep. I think sleep is one of those things, but I think there are a few other ones as well. So I'll tell you the story. It was kind of interesting. A friend of mine, Joe Polish, wrote this really cool book called Life gives to the giver. And it talks about how you can, by giving away your time and energy, you get so much in return. And one of the things he was talking about in this book were these things called dominoes. And he felt like dominoes were these skills that once you got it, it would knock down another, and then another, and then all of a sudden, it starts moving very, very rapidly in a very positive direction. And I thought that's a great analogy. But what are the dominoes of wellness? Right? Like, what could they be? So, of course, I started thinking about, well, what could you not live without? Like, if we're going to try to get bit to the basics, well, you can't live without air, right? So that's a that's breathing. And I started to look into it. And by the way, like, There so many people don't breathe correctly. I didn't even know that was a thing, but people don't breathe correctly, and you can only go about I think Kate, Kate Winslet holds an interesting record as an actress. She held her breath in the movie Avatar for like, six minutes and 30 seconds or something. Wow. Yeah, it was really cool. She worked with a diving coach and the whole thing right now, supposedly, there are a couple of guys who've got these world records where they they take in pure oxygen. Then they hyperventilate themselves, and they stick themselves in a pool, face down. One guy stayed there for like, I think it was like 18 or 20 minutes. But here's the bottom line is, you can't go for very long, especially as a normal human, without air. So one of the things I had to think was air. The second one was water. So I.

Dr. Michael Breus:

Started to look around, and you can go a really long time without food. You could actually go 30 days if you wanted to. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for actually, a lot of Americans out there, but you can't go more than about two days, maybe three tops without water. And so I figured, okay, that's gotta be hydrations gotta be another one. And as I said before, I'm a little biased when it comes to sleep. The world's record for going without sleep is 11 days. It was set back in the 70s by a guy named Rudy Gardner, and he drank coffee and played pinball, and by like, day six, he was like a dribbling idiot, like he couldn't answer questions. He was hallucinating by day eight. So when I when I thought about, What could these dominoes be? And I like, the number three, it kind of works for me, you know, DNA, all these different things, I was like, Okay, it's got to be sleep, it's got to be hydration, and it's got to be breathing. And so then I started thinking about, you know, that book, Eat, Pray, Love, yeah, I

Brooke Schnittman:

was gonna say, you're right. And

Dr. Michael Breus:

I was like, Oh, well, why can't we just do sleep, drink, breathe? And then I then somebody said, you can. And so we did. So the book is really, I think it's like a starting line, because, like, so many people are confused, you know. And people tell me all the time, like, Well, Michael, I don't even know where to start with sleep, you know. And so it's okay, good, that great. That's exactly what the book is designed to do. I don't know where to start with hydration. No problem. This is exactly what I want you to do, breath work. And that's the really interesting one. So many people are like, What are you talking about? Breath work? What does that mean? Michael, like, I breathe every day, you know? And it's like people don't know that there are ancient practices within the yogic tradition and within the Indian culture that have been around for 1000s and 1000s of years, where you can control your entire bodily system just by breathing, like you can amp your heart rate up, you can slow your heart rate down. You can breathe to get yourself to sleep. You can breathe to get yourself to run a marathon. Like it's it's impressive. What's out there? And so I figured, hey, why don't I take a deep dive on all three topics and then come up with the most salient, easy to follow things and then stick them in a book? And that's what we did.

Brooke Schnittman:

So you're keeping it super simple in a very complex and modern society where all this new information is just coming at you. 24/7, yeah, I love it,

Dr. Michael Breus:

and it's and it's so hard because I, you know, we're like, we're on a podcast about ADD and ADHD, right? Well, when there's so much information coming at you from so many different directions, even if you don't have ADD or ADHD, yeah, it feels like you ADD and ADHD, because there's just so much information. So this is such a relevant group of people to talk to, because you're already having issues with focus and concentration and things like that. I'm here to tell you, sleeping, drinking and breathing helps all of that more so with ADD and ADHD, in many cases, than a lot of other stuff.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, we need what human society needs, but to a mother, a much, you know, a different level in certain things like we we experience the same emotions that everyone does, but way more extreme. So it's, it's like this, like even in my book, I talk about the hierarchy of needs. If you can't write food and you can't sleep and you can't drink and you can't breathe, then you can't be productive, you can't be happy. There's a lot of other things that will not come if you don't take care of it. So I'm really excited to have you and also, Dr Howell talks about the variable attention syndrome traits. I need to remember the name of it, but basically everyone as a modern society's attention span has lessened. So we all experience symptoms that might appear, like ADHD at times, not saying that people have it, but they experience the symptoms. And if you can't sleep, you're going to experience those symptoms, like you

Dr. Michael Breus:

said, well, and also, and I think that's really an interesting point to double tap on real quick for folks, is I've had patients who came to my office who thought they had ADD and ADHD and they had a sleep disorder. And when we fixed the sleep disorder, guess what, they didn't have it anymore. I'm not saying that that happens to the majority of cases, but I want to be clear that if you have disrupted sleep, if you are sleep deprived, number one, you can make a normal person look like an Add Person like that, with a little bit of sleep deprivation, right? And so a lot of people out there might be thinking, hey, I have this diagnosis of add ADHD, which, by the way, if you have a diagnosis, there's nothing wrong with having a diagnosis. But also if you're sleep deprived, that makes the situation significantly worse. Now here's where I think it gets super duper interesting. Is for folks out there who've decided to take medication for their ADD and ADHD, historically, those are stimulants, right? You want to talk about messing up somebody's sleep, about completely reducing their appetite, and then they stop thinking about. Water right? And you see what I'm saying, like, it's this weird circle that happens specifically edge

Brooke Schnittman:

sword right, like, right

Dr. Michael Breus:

in the Add ADHD community. This happens because of when you take your medication, if you're taking medication, and the side effects of that medication can actually have major effects, like on your sleep, on your hydration, and on your breathing, right and so, yes, it's really important for this group of people in particular to really have a have a system like, I want to be super clear, it doesn't have to be my system, but you need a system of some some guide rails, like, some thoughts about, well, what do I need to do for sleep, right? Like, what, what can I do? That makes intuitive sense. Now, what can, what can I do for hydration? Now, what can I do for for breathing? Now, to help me, right? And so let's, let's drop in on a, if you want, on a couple of those ideas, right? Yeah, I

Brooke Schnittman:

would love to. And I just want to say one thing, like, with ADHD, we are one big paradox, right? Like,

Dr. Michael Breus:

oh my gosh, yes. We

Brooke Schnittman:

know we need reliable sleep, we know we need to drink water, we know we need to breathe. And like, we get so hyper focused that we forget to drink, or our medication is keeping us hyper focused that we forget to eat, we forget to drink, or the stimulants not wearing off in time, or we have restless leg syndrome, or we have anxiety, or we think about all of the things that we didn't accomplish, or the things that we need to next day. So yes, please give me your tips,

Dr. Michael Breus:

absolutely. Also, you reminded me of another thing that I forgot about that's very common in your demographic and population, is when you're hyper focused, you forget to breathe.

Brooke Schnittman:

You ever notice that I seriously sometimes I think to myself, like, like, I catch myself taking really big breaths, right?

Dr. Michael Breus:

It's because your medication or your add is hyper focusing you and you. You You get so involved in this thing that lock like, I find it all the time. People are like, Oh my gosh, I don't think I've had a breath in 30 seconds. And then they breathe, and they're like, Oh, okay. Like, you just become so focused that other things just kind of shut down. Do this tremendous focus. And so, believe it or not, it can't be breath work as well. So step number one, with all of my ADD ADHD, folks, is number one, are you a medication protocol person? Are you a non medication protocol person? Because that helps me sort of understand what I'm what I might be dealing with here. So if you are taking medication for add ADHD, one of the first things I like to do is look at the timing of your medication, because when you take your medication too late in the day, that can have some effects on sleep at night and anxiety at night. And so, as an example, sometimes I have people where they have their extended releases in the morning and then a short releases in the afternoon, versus the short release in the morning and the extended release in the afternoon, which has oftentimes many problems. I want to be very, very clear. I am nobody's doctor that is listening to this. No one has the right to change their timing of their own medication. You need to talk with your doctor before you do it, because there can be consequences. So I want to be super duper clear. This is theory. This is what I would do if somebody was in one of my clinics. But I'm not anybody's doctor, but I want you to know and understand that the medication you take that helps you could also have some side effects that might be a bit annoying, and those need to be addressed for folks who are not using medication, that's a slightly different thing. A lot of times we're looking at caffeine, we're looking at energy drinks, we're looking at those types of self medication seems to happen for some people quite a bit. And so that's another thing that we really want to look at. Is caffeine intake, things of that nature

Brooke Schnittman:

you shared on the first podcast episode, the cutoff time can you re share that for caffeine? Yeah.

Dr. Michael Breus:

So what I like to do is, from a cutoff perspective, I like people to cut off around 2pm if it, if it is at all possible. Here's why. It turns out that caffeine has a half life of somewhere between eight and 10 hours, depending upon how old you are. So as an example, I'm 56 years old, and so my metabolism is slower than my son's, who's 22 years old. And so when he drinks caffeine, and when I drink caffeine, it motors through his system much faster than it does mine. Now, why does that matter? Well, if I drink a cup of coffee at two o'clock in the afternoon, 50% five 0% is still wandering around my brain eight hours later. So that's probably not, you know, like that's the lower level limit, right? So what I try to tell people is stop at 2pm if you can. And by the way, nobody out there should go cold turkey off of caffeine. I think we talked about this last time on the podcast, I had two people end up in the hospital when they went cold turkey off of caffeine. They were two pot a day drinkers. I had one person go in with seizures. No joke, seizures from caffeine withdrawal. And I had one person who basically hadn't slept in like three or four days, like it was awful. So I want to be so hyper clear if you are a six monster a day drinker, then you want to slowly taper that down until you can get yourself down, and then you want to have a window of caffeine. So what is my window of caffeine? So what I tell people is, you don't want caffeine to be the first liquid that crosses your lips in the morning. You want to hydrate before you caffeinate. Okay? Now I'm not saying get rid of your coffee. I drink coffee in the mornings. I love my black coffee in the mornings. I have a half a cup every single day, right? As I'm walking into the gym, right? I use that to help give me a little bit of excess energy and things like that. But it's it's subscribed to a particular period of time. Now, a lot of people say, Well, Mike, like, I can barely get the brain fog out of my head in the morning, and the caffeine is what helps me. What? What do I do if you don't want me to if you don't want me to drink caffeine immediately? Here's what I want you to do. Let me explain the science. There are two hormones that you have to have to pull your brain out of an unconscious state. One of them is adrenaline. The other is cortisol, okay, when those are wandering around in your brain and you add caffeine, that's like adding weak tea to somebody who's on cocaine, okay, adrenaline and cortisol are some of the most powerful hormones in your body. Caffeine can't even come close to that. But if you wait 90 minutes after you wake up, cortisol actually drops naturally, and when you add caffeine, it actually boosts the cortisol for you get bigger bang for your buck. So what I tell people is, hydrate yourself in the morning. By the way, sleep in and of itself is a dehydrative event. Most people don't know that you lose almost a full liter of water just from the humidity in your breath. Wow, of breathing out at night. So when you wake up you want to drink some water. Now let's talk about drinking because sleep, drink, breathe. We're talking about hydration here. Hydration is such an interesting area that I have now really dug deep in. So as you know, I'm an exerciser, runner kind of person, so I'm always out and about and very active, and so I've had to learn how to hydrate. I lived in Scottsdale, Arizona for 11 years, and let me tell you, the sweat burns off your skin so fast you don't even know you're sweating. So you really have to understand hydration, and it all boils down to water salt balance. That's really what it's about here, right? And so believe it or not, you can over drink and have too much water on board. You can under drink and have not enough water on board. So we're always looking for the balance. So

Brooke Schnittman:

I've been taking a lot of electrolytes recently, because I've heard,

Dr. Michael Breus:

let's talk about hydration multipliers. Okay, all right,

Brooke Schnittman:

I just want you to talk, and I won't say anything, because there's so much good information. No, there's so much good information. So you're answering all my questions before I even ask the questions. Anyway. So it's perfect. I'm using

Dr. Michael Breus:

M and L M N T element, l m n t,

Brooke Schnittman:

yes, my question for you is, I've seen more and more women with ADHD have pots.

Dr. Michael Breus:

Yes, pots got it,

Brooke Schnittman:

and because of that, of course, needing more electrolytes. Yep, what is the relationship? If you can share there. Okay,

Dr. Michael Breus:

so just to be clear, this is not my area of expertise, but I do have to know a little bit about it, because I have two patients with pots, and one of them's female, so there's, I have a little bit of kind of clinical understanding there. And so yes, you are correct that electrolytes turn out to be an important factor. But here is something that I think is important, not just for people out there with pots, but for anyone who wants to use one of these hide what we're calling hydration multipliers. So brand names of some of these are liquid, IV, LM and T things like that. And I want to be clear, I'm not here to disparage any of the products that are out there, but what I am here to do is say, you want to really look at the ingredients. So as an example, one of them has 1000 milligrams of sodium, 1000 Okay, nobody needs 1000 milligrams of sodium. All right, so it and by the way, that's on a very popular brand, so what you really want to be looking for is what's inside, what is what looks good. And by the way, you can kind of make your own if you really wanted to, like, if you want to make really good electrolyte filled water, what you need is about an eighth of a tablespoon of salt and some lemon and some clean, purified water. That's it. That's all you really need. And I promise you, you'll get everything that you need. Eat a banana with it, by the way, which isn't going to kill you. And you'll be set for exactly what you're looking for. Now, when you're looking at somebody with pots, right? That that's a much more complicated situation. In also, you want to be careful of sodium overload there. So whoever your person is, I would really take a look at, go ahead and like, buy a few of the hydration multipliers, or look up, look them up online and see because sodium, remember, sodium, with too much sodium makes you retain fluid, and that can be bad in a pot situation, just as much as it can be good. So you want to be thoughtful there. I do think, by the way, that hydration multipliers can be useful, but only in certain circumstances. So let me give you an example. So if you're a runner and you're doing your normal run during the week, let's say it's three miles or five miles. No, you wouldn't need it. But if you're doing a long run on Sunday, yeah, you should have it, right? So if you're going to be going, you know, two hours longer than you normally go, well, you're going to lose you're going to sweat out a ton of magnesium, so, you know, you're going to sweat out a ton of sodium. So, yeah, it would be intelligent to take that ahead of time, so that your body doesn't bonk in the middle of whatever activity is you're trying to do. Also, for example, if you're not used to hiking, but somebody invites you to go on a hike, throw one of those things into your water, right? It's, it's certainly not going to hurt you. But do you need one for every single time you work out? No, there's no universe. If you do, you've got a problem, then you probably have a deficiency, then that might require some level of supplementation, right? So I think there are instances where it makes sense. But to be fair, if you just drink water and you have a decent diet, you really should get every I mean, POTS is a different situation, but you really should get what you need. Yeah, that's really good. Thank you. The big thing people talk to me about is amount of water, and they're trying to figure out, like, how much do I really need? So I dug deep on this topic. It's unbelievable how many different water recommendations that there are out there. It's, and by the way, they they vary wildly. There are some groups that say you should drink 140 ounces a day. There are some groups that say you should drink 40 ounces a day, like it's, well, maybe not 40. But you know what I'm saying? Like it's, it's pretty ridiculous, kind of the differences that are out there. So, so what I did was I actually created a formula that I feel is, and we try, we tried to take reuptake into account. So when, when we hydrate, there's a lot of things that people don't think about, but the way I think people should think about hydration is, you are a sponge, okay? And so as a sponge, you know, like when you go to the sink in the morning and you're gonna and the sponge is dry, right? And it's kind of hard, right? And you can kind of knock it around right when you put it under the water spout. What happens? Immediately, the water rolls off of it, but then some of it begins to get absorbed, and then some of it begins to get absorbed. And if you have the stream on heavy, then there's too much water in it, it just rolls off. Right? That's exactly how hydration works. Is your body is a sponge, okay? And so if you gulp huge amounts of water in the morning, it's just gonna run off. If you sip like if you take your time, if you take 10 minutes to drink 15 ounces of water while you're sitting outside in the sunlight, getting some vitamin D every morning. It's probably one of the best things you could possibly do for yourself, and you're actually absorbing the water. What a lot of people can't comprehend is, if I take, you know, this big thing, and I chug the whole thing, guess what? I'm not actually going to get the water in, because it's just going to roll through my system, because it's not going to have a chance to get absorbed, right? But if I sip it along the way, I have a far greater likelihood of doing that. The other big thing I think, that people don't really think about is, can you over water yourself, right? So I see these people with these monster, you know, Stanley Cups that are, you know, gallons of water and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, Look, if you want to get super technical, here's the formula. Take your weight, multiply it by 0.6 okay, and that gives you your daily intake. If you work out, add 12 ounces for every half hour. If it's summer time and you live in a hot climate, add an additional 20 ounces. That's it. That's the formula. It's very simple, and it's easy to use. That's for your total water consumption in a day. So now you're saying, Okay, let's say that equals into 74 ounces, roughly, okay, for depending upon how much you weigh. So all right, Michael, how am I gonna get 74 ounces in great question. So in the book sleep, drink, breathe, we actually have created a sleep, drink, breathe, plan. And so what I have you do is I have you pull out your phone, and I have you set alarms on your phone. So one is in the morning, one is in the mid afternoon, one is lunch, one is before dinner, and then one is with dinner. Now you notice I didn't say I want you drinking after dinner. So what a lot of people do is they say, oh shit, I haven't had enough water today. It's nine o'clock good. And then they wake up and they pee all night long, right? Like that doesn't help. Yeah, right. And so I trying to get, if I can get you to remember. Her to do these things five times a day. It's going to be helpful. Now, one of the things you might have noticed is, I said one of those waters is with lunch, and one of those is with dinner. Eating or drinking water with food helps you get more water in. Okay, because food is right, it's spicy, it's salty, it, you know, generates the taste buds, glug, glug, glug, glug. Get it down in you know, here's

Brooke Schnittman:

what so much contradictory stuff out there, right? Haven't you heard? Oh, don't drink water with food, because it hurts your absorption of the food.

Dr. Michael Breus:

The exact opposite is true, and I've got the data to prove it. So what happens inside your gut? This is kind of gross, but it's true is, once all the food gets down there it, if it doesn't have moisture and fluid, it has to turn itself into what's called a slurry. So, you know, like Slurpees at the 711 right, your gut form something that's kind of that level of consistency. There's a lot of liquid in that. If it doesn't have liquid coming in through your mouth, you know where the liquid comes from, right? Gets pulled from your tissues. It get pulled from your blood, and then what ends up happening is the balance is off, right? So when you don't have enough water in your system, your whole system starts saying things like thirst kicks into gear, right? But for very long time, people have told themselves they don't listen to their thirst signal, right? So I'll give you an example. I'm at the movies, right? I don't have a drink, but I'm thirsty. What do I do? Do I get up? No, I just sit there, thirsty. There's so many situations that we have to be thoughtful about. So we don't want to under drink, but also we don't want to over drink. So again, it's all about finding that balance. One last thing, and then I'll let you ask a question. Is, a lot of people have asked me about caffeine in the morning, and does it count for hydration? Because caffeine is a diuretic. Here's what I can tell you, is it does count for hydration, but only up to two cups. Once you go past two cups, you have enough caffeine in your system where the diuretic action of the caffeine will kick in and make you pee. So historically, I used to tell people, no, no, you can't have caffeine. Blah, blah, blah, absolutely not. You can have caffeine. I want you to have water first, but you can have two cups of coffee, and it will count towards your hydration quotient, if you will. But once you get past two, that's when the weird stuff happens. Fascinating.

Brooke Schnittman:

Does that include if you have a double shot in one cup?

Dr. Michael Breus:

So absolutely, it's just about the liquid and it's about the caffeine itself. So if you have a double shot, that's like having two cups of coffee for sure. Okay, all right,

Brooke Schnittman:

so with ADHD, you mentioned it before the stimulants can keep you up, but can also cause dry mouth. And do you have a formula for that? Is there more water that needs to be in? Yep. So

Dr. Michael Breus:

it's a great question, and it's very diff, and that's a difficult one to answer. So number one, I don't have a great answer for this, other than sipping throughout the day has a far greater likelihood of keeping that area moist. Chewing gum can be helpful, but then sometimes that can actually make you have dry mouth on top of that, so sometimes that can't is not nearly as good. It's difficult. I do have one patient, and what she does is she adds a little bit of salt to her water, and that helps keep that whole area kind of fresh and irrigated and not drying out. And then also looking at, when do you get the dry mouth? Is it immediately after you take the medication? Is it? Is it take a couple of hours? So if it does take a few hours, you can start to plan for that by sipping water throughout the day. Again, set an alarm on your phone, if that works for you, and then take 10 minutes at each one of those marks to drink a little bit more water. But yeah, medication is definitely one of those factors that we have to kind of think through from a timing perspective, but also from a dry mouth perspective. And I have and tell me if this is your experience as well, because I don't have add my son does. I've heard these medications affect appetite as well. It's not that he he just forgets to drink because he's not like, there's no signal that's going saying, like, sometimes he'll go all day and he won't eat. He'll

Brooke Schnittman:

forget to eat. He's not hungry. He hyper focuses on something else, and then all of a sudden, eats out of his system. And then he binge eats because he hasn't eaten all day.

Dr. Michael Breus:

He's starving, correct? Exactly, exactly. The good news about that scenario is, if you sleep pretty well, you have a less of a likelihood of those things happening, and if you hydrate, you also have less of a likelihood of those things happening. But you have to incorporate this as a habit. I I can't stress this enough. Like, don't buy the book if you're just going to use it for the three week plan, use it for three weeks and toss it because that's not really what it's designed for. Like, I want people to start to habitualize the idea and make consistent the idea of hydration, sleep, breath, work, things like that. With. Sleep. Here's what I can tell you, is the best thing that anybody listening to this podcast can do is wake up at the same time, seven days a week, right? So it helps with circadian consistency, right? Also, from an add ADHD perspective, depending upon when you take your medications, it also levels that out and gives you a level of consistency of when meds come on board, because a lot of people, you know, they don't, they don't take their meds on a regular schedule. And sometimes it's at 630 sometimes it's at 730 sometimes it's 830 and they don't realize that exactly. And then all of a sudden, you don't it's two o'clock in the afternoon, and you realize something's wrong, like, I don't feel the way I usually feel at two o'clock. And did I forget to take my meds? Did I take them late? Did I take them early? Those did I double take them? Which happens often, yeah, like, yeah. Like, I have patients where we have to do the pill boxes, and they're like, I don't want I feel like an old person with a pill box. It's like, no, no, no. This is about your memory. Like, this is about making sure that you don't overdose on things, and so it takes a little bit to accept that. But yeah, but that level of consistency in the morning is probably the biggest thing. And then what's also interesting with my ADD and ADHD patients in particular, we talk about it quite a bit in the book, is the idea of a chronotype. So I think I talked about it last time here a little bit, but a chronotype is your internal genetic predisposition for sleep. So believe it or not, if we look at everybody's genes, we can actually locate on the P, E, r3, area if you're an early bird or a night owl, genetically speaking, and then I can show you exactly what your sleep time should be. Now, once you kind of fall into that zone of early, which I call a lion, late, which I call a wolf, and there's a quiz that you can take, and I'll tell you all about in a second, once you know what your kind of swim lane is, if you follow that guideline, you actually fall asleep more quickly, wake up more easily. And it's it's kind of this zone where your sleep gets more efficient, believe it or not. And this is going to sound crazy, but I did the experiment on myself. So I'm a wolf, which is a night owl, and so night owls shouldn't go to bed before midnight. So I set my clock to tell me when to go to bed, and I went to bed at midnight every single night for about a month, okay? And I just let myself wake up whenever I would wake up at first, I was waking up at 730 then it was 715 then it was 645 I don't actually sleep much longer than about six hours and 30 minutes, if I sleep within my chronotypical swim lane, if you will. So my sleep has compressed itself. And when I look at my sleep on my aura ring, I have the exact same percentages that I had when I had more sleep. That's fascinating, actually getting the correct percentages, but my body doesn't need as much because

Brooke Schnittman:

you have restless sleep. Yeah, exactly. So after you told me about the corona types, I did the test, and a lot of my clients have taken it, and pretty much almost all of us are dolphins.

Dr. Michael Breus:

Yes, I know, so let's talk about dolphins. So dolphins are the entire reason that I wrote the book was for dolphins, and they're my favorite clients, by the way, sorry for all you folks out there, but dolphins are the best, and here's why, is because they think that their sleep is not within their control, and I can show them exactly how to control their sleep, right? And so when you wake up in the morning at a the same time, so follow the follow the biology here, when you wake up at 6am there's a timer that's set in your brain that says that 12 to 14 hours later, melatonin can start again. So when you wake up at 612, hours later is 614, hours later is eight, takes about 90 minutes, and it gets up in and you're ready to go, okay, but instead of waking up at six, you wake up at eight, because it's Saturday right now, melatonin is off by two hours, which means you're not going to fall asleep for an additional two hours tonight. And then what's going to happen the next day? You're going to want to sleep in? Yeah, right. And so it's this, stay up late, sleep in. Stay up late, sleep in, and all sudden you've got this thing called social jet lag. So by keeping consistency, even on the weekends, which I know is not a lot of fun, what ends up happening is when you do need to stay out late, like, let's say you want to go see Taylor Swift or something fun like that, and you're up till two o'clock in the morning because you've had so much consistency before you can have a bad night, and your system will snap right back, and you will be fine. But if you've had crappy, irregular wake up times, and then you layer on another one, your body's going to be equally as confused, and you're never going to snap back. So by having that level of consistency, it ends up being extremely helpful.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, yeah, no. It's wonderful. And. I know you mentioned that you like naps. You encourage naps.

Dr. Michael Breus:

I do, but not for people with insomnia. I want to be super duper clear, if you've got insomnia, please don't nap, because you lower your sleep drive and you won't be able to fall asleep that night. But I do like napping for ADD and ADHD people. And I'm so glad you brought this up, because I hadn't even thought about this, but I'm glad to bring it up here is I have this, I have this idea about naps. You don't have to actually sleep to get the benefit. Okay? And I think that adders are the ones who feel this the most. It's just about getting out of the energy, getting out of the space. You know what I'm saying? Like, just get yourself into a room, put on an eye mask, put on an earplugs for 10 minutes. I don't care if you sleep or you don't sleep, just being away from all of that stimulus for a few minutes. Yes, it's good for your brain. Yeah.

Brooke Schnittman:

What about nsdr?

Dr. Michael Breus:

So I like nsdr for Wait, tell me what. Tell me what your definition of

Brooke Schnittman:

non sleep, deep breaths, right? Yep,

Dr. Michael Breus:

this is exactly what I'm talking about for folks, especially add folks. Now here's one of the things that happens to them, is they're like, Am I doing it right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing it right? You know, that kind of stuff. So what I tell all my adders to do is set a timer for 10 minutes, the only thing you have to do is lie here with your eyes closed. Now I want to be also clear for everybody out there, if you do this, safety is a number one concern. So you need to let somebody know that you're going somewhere to do this and or have that person come check on you in 10 minutes. I personally take at least 215 minute breaks every single day where my eyes are closed. Sometimes I'm lying down, sometimes I'm just sitting here in my chair, but it's always refreshing, and that's what non sleep, deep rest is, or what we call nsdr,

Brooke Schnittman:

and one of the most amazing things that you've shared with me, because I do have sleep problems, like dolphins do, the anxiety of my anxiety and my ADHD and, you know, whatever. Yeah, the one of the the greatest things, besides going to bed and waking up at the same time, is doing the Serenity Prayer, like you mentioned, you know, just leaning into the fact when you wake up or you can't sleep. Okay, you know this is, this is what's happening right now.

Dr. Michael Breus:

So that's actually one of the steps in sleep, drink, breathe. Is acceptance, right? It's like, you know what? Sometimes you do it all right, and it still doesn't work. It still doesn't work. And it's two o'clock in the morning and you're upset. You are pissed off, you're anxious, you're pretty sure you're going to get fired the next day, or your spouse is going to leave you, or some crazy thing is going on in your head, right? And so the goal here is to number one, remember a few things. Nobody made a great decision at 330 in the morning. Nobody. Okay. So anything that you're coming up with that you think is really, you know, relevant to your life is probably not. That's number one. Number two, it's okay. This situation has happened to you. How many dozens and dozens of times like your head have never popped off before. All of these consequences that you've really thought about before are not really happening ever, right? So what happens? Well, you're tired, you might over caffeinate a little. Be careful. Please don't do that. Please go to bed, not early, but at your normal time. And guess what, if you've had a decent run of sleep, your body will snap right back and you'll be good to go. So that's kind of where I kind of try to help people understand and kind of manipulate. But at the end of the day, if you wake up in the middle of the night, you can't fall back to sleep. It's not the end of the world. Now there's two options for you if you're doing that. So let's say it's 334 o'clock and you're like, Oh, this isn't happening. What should I do? Now there are two schools of thought. One is non sleep, deep rest for two hours that that would equal about 30 to 40 minutes of sleep from a rejuvenative standpoint. But I'm going to be honest with you, most dolphins can't sit still that long. They're just that's just not part of who their nature is. And so what I would tell you to do is do a non sleep, deep rest until you feel like you don't want to do it anymore, and then just go ahead and get up and start your day. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't go to bed early. That is the cardinal sin of every dolphin in the universe. And let me explain what happens is they say to themselves, I am so damn tired. Okay, this is good. I'm gonna sneak into bed at eight o'clock and I'm going to catch up on all the sleep that I've been missing. Remember, melatonin isn't firing for you then, so all you've got is this level of exhaustion that, yes, you may fall asleep for 45 minutes to an hour, most people wake up at so let's say you get in bed at eight. You fall asleep, you're going to get up at like 930 And now you're in trouble because your sleep drive is down. You don't have enough sleep kind of left in you to push you into the night. And now you're really in trouble. Or you fall asleep for about four hours, and then you wake up in the middle of the night and you're done. There's no universe you're going to fall back. Oh yeah. So if you if you have insomnia or you have a really shitty night, don't go to bed early, even though you may want to try to keep yourself up as late as you possibly can. Now, a lot of people like Michael, I can't stay up like I'm falling asleep on the couch. Like, what do I do? You know, brain games, crossword puzzles. Talk with your spouse. By the way, you have a person maybe living with you. You can have a relationship with them. Talk with them. Like there's all kinds of things that can go on there, right? You know, go for a walk, play with your dog. Like there's a lot of things. Like, people like, what am I going to do? How do I stay up late? It's like, Are you kidding me? When I was 14 years old, you didn't have to tell me things to do, to stay up late. That's all I wanted to do. Exactly,

Brooke Schnittman:

do you believe in ADHD or needing more simulation before they go to bed too, not crossing the threshold, but needing stimulation. So

Dr. Michael Breus:

I really feel that there are a few schools of thought on this, because I don't feel like all ADHD is created equal. Makes sense. I I think there are some people who do prefer a level of stimulation before bed, as an example. Now, my wife doesn't have ADD ADHD, but she watches the television to fall asleep every single night, and I'm the sleep doctor. Okay, so I think there are some people that just require that attentional focus, so that they don't focus on things that are more negative, right? So that could be music, that could be a podcast, that could be prayer, that could be television. I'm probably the only sleep doctor in the universe that says it's okay to fall asleep with the television on, and I'll tell you why. Is because almost every single person that I talk to tells me the same thing. I don't watch it. I listen to it. Eyes are closed, right? I mean, you could turn the brightness almost completely off. Nobody would care, right? Because I'm kind of listening to it. I call it out of the corner of your ear, right? It's not like you're really paying attention, but it's just enough attention to pay so you're not doom scrolling in your head about everything you said today that you wish you hadn't said, or everything you know what I'm saying. And so I don't have a problem with that level of distraction. Now, would it be great if it didn't have blue light attached to it. Yeah, it would be. But I don't think I care if it's television. I will tell you that I care if it's Doom scrolling on your phone, because there's an engagement there, right? So, like, if you're trying to get your high score on Candy Crush, you're not trying to go to bed, you know? But if you're listening to an old episode of Seinfeld while your eyes are closed,

Brooke Schnittman:

that's legitimately what we do before we go to bed. Yep, right, exactly.

Dr. Michael Breus:

That makes intuitive sense to me. I'm okay with that. Like you have sleep doctor approval if that's what you do, especially if you're an add or an ADHD or because that's part of you, that's part of your universe. Now, again, I don't think that works the same way for all of you folks out there, because I think there are a lot of differences within but I don't think it's something bad. I certainly don't think it would give you bad sleep.

Brooke Schnittman:

So it's leaning into what works for you as an individual, you know, as long

Dr. Michael Breus:

as it's not disruptive to your partner, and as long as it's reasonably healthy like what is bad is when you lean into, for example, supplementation, and all of a sudden you're taking 12 supplements for sleep that you really don't need. That's what I don't want people to do, like, in my world, and I think I've said this to you before, like, I'm interested in giving you a skill, not a pill, right? Like, because the data is, the data is on my side with this. Like, it's much better, and it lasts much longer if I give you that skill set of cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, stress reduction, we talk about non sleep, deep, rest, all these different things can be very, very helpful to you without a pill. That's where I think the breathing section of my book actually comes into play a lot, because, again, there's so many different kind of breathing techniques out there that a lot of people don't think about one thing that I think is great for ADHD ers is 478, breathing. Have you ever heard of that or tried that?

Brooke Schnittman:

Yep, yep. It's great. Holding it for seven. Bring in four seconds. Hold it seven, release eight,

Dr. Michael Breus:

exactly. So Dr Andrew Weil developed this, believe it or not, I don't know if you know the original story. It's kind of interesting for the Navy SEALs, honestly. And so here's what they were trying to do, which I think is kind of cool, is if you're a sniper and you're shooting down range, you have to slow your heart rate down. Otherwise, your heart rate can change the trajectory of the bullet right, because it'll move right. Because think about, if you're about ready to shoot somebody down, your heart rate is going to be really up there, right? That wouldn't be good. So what we had to do was teach them how to shoot in between heartbeats. And so in order to do that, you had to get people's heart rate down to about 60 or below. That's exactly what this technique does, 478, breathing is it dumps your heart rate down to 60 or below. Here. Here's the part that we take advantage of is that's the exact number that you need in order to enter into a state of unconsciousness. Is a heart rate of 60 or below, given the right environment, right? So if you're a sniper and you've got a gun and your heart rate is 60 or below, you're not gonna fall asleep on the gun, right? Because you've got a lot of adrenaline going on. There's all kinds of stuff. But if your heart rate is at 60 or below and you're in a dark, quiet, cold room, you're gonna fall asleep. Yeah? 478, is a much better way to do it than popping a pill, which is gonna wear off and all the other Yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

I love that. And I just want to ask one more question about sleep for you, though, and then definitely go more into the breathing piece you mentioned in your book that people come to you without using aura and other sleep tools, and say, I had the best sleep of my life, but then they test it out with the aura, and their sleep sucks. How is that possible?

Dr. Michael Breus:

So here's the thing. Number one, Aura is not necessarily the most accurate device in the universe. Now I want to be clear. I've been on their board, and I understand how it works. I would argue they're the most accurate than anybody else out there. Them and Fitbit have actually done head to head studies, but you can't just look at your singular data. So many people do this. They walk up to me with their phones on their screens, and they're like, Dr Bruce, what does this mean? I don't know what it means. If you got 14 minutes of deep sleep last night, here's what I can tell you, is look across the week, okay, and look at the average if you got 14 minutes of deep sleep every single night based on your aura ring. Clearly, that's not accurate, but it's being consistently inaccurate. Hmm, that's all I need, because it hasn't changed. But if you had 14 minutes one night, and 407 the next, and 236 the next, I want to know what happened on those two nights, because that influenced the consistency of the data. And that's where the goodie is. That's what you're looking for. So by the way, there's something called ortho somnia Now, where you get so anxious about your data you can't fall asleep. Oh,

Brooke Schnittman:

gosh, so the data is causing a lack of sleep. Fascinating, only in the US. No, I'm

Unknown:

just kidding, only in the US. All

Brooke Schnittman:

right, let's talk more about breathing. You mentioned the 478, I've also heard about the box. There's lots of different breathing techniques out there. What are we doing wrong about our breathing, and what can we do to change it?

Dr. Michael Breus:

Well, I think the probably, if I had to pick one or two things, what I would say is, we don't think about it. And I think that is probably one of the biggest things, is it so involuntary that we don't think about it when we're doing it. So, like, just us sitting here on the podcast and talking like, I'm very aware of my breath, because I have to get in my breath before I can jabber onto the microphone, right, and not sound like I'm about to die of, you know, like, like, I've got to kind of keep my so I'm very conscious of that. But most people are not. Most people are shallow breathers, they really don't extend through the lung at all, and they just kind of really use the upper lobe of one of the lungs. So a lot of people don't know a lot about lung physiology, believe it or not, you have there's three lobes in one lung and two lobes in the other lung, because you gotta have room for the liver. So your lungs aren't actually the same, and they breathe a little bit differently. And it's really healthy to take in big, deep breaths, diaphragmatic breaths, on occasion. So belly breathing is actually very, very healthy. So one of the things that I try to get people to incorporate is breath work, for example, while they're falling asleep, right? And so that's why 478 breathing works so well. But you can just do plain old diaphragmatic belly breathing as you're falling asleep, and it's very relaxing and it's really good for you, but so many people, I think the number one thing is just the depth of breath that people have. The second thing that I always want people to just be thoughtful about is the quality of the air. I'm a big person on air, air quality and water quality as well. Like, by the way, nobody should be drinking water out of plastic bottles. Like, I think that's official now, and or you should, you should drink good water. Like, you need to know what the water that's coming out of your tap. Like, every county has a website that you can go to and you can learn what are the chemicals that are still in your water. Personally, I buy a Brita filter. It's 20 bucks for the pitcher and 20 bucks for the filter, and we use them every day, and that's how we get our It's simple. It's 20 bucks like that's what we have to do. The same holds true with air. Like so many people don't really think about the air quality. I got a real dose of air quality information. My daughter, just before COVID broke out, was studying in Beijing, and their air quality there is awful. And so what was so fascinating for me was we went and got her a respirator for just walking around, because the AQI the air. Quality Index where she was living was so awful that I had her wearing a mask before COVID even broke out, right? So if you're thinking about air quality, like as an example, here in California, if you go up to the valley, the air quality is less because you're in between two mountains, there's cloud cover and kind of the smog gets trapped in there, right? So what do I do? I have air filters in my house, right? I have air purifiers in my house, and you don't have to go crazy, right? Like, here's what I do, is I put an air purifier in my bedroom, because that's the room I spend the most time in,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, but my question for you, and that's all great to think about. And I air quality is so important. When I think about breathing, I take a deep breath, and I know you're mentioning that good, right? But I have anxiety. I have ADHD and like, I constantly find myself not breathing. I mean, do I need a reminder to breathe? So it's,

Dr. Michael Breus:

it's an interesting question, and I don't, I don't think I have the best answer for you, but I would say probably it has a lot to do with that. Hyper focus, for add years, is my, my personal theory. Like, I want to say, I'm, this is my personal theory. I don't have any data to behind it, but I've seen a lot of ad patients, and so what I think happens a lot is, yeah, I think that hyper focus makes you forget to breathe, and that becomes an issue. And so by having planned times of day to breathe, you can counteract that, right? And so those five times when you're drinking the water, you're breathing in between sips, and you take nice big, long breaths, and now you're killing two birds with one stone, right? Like, you don't have to, like, if you don't want to do 478, breathing, or you don't want to do box breathing, which is just four, hold for, you know, release four, which is also another technique that's okay, like, just breathe in between sips of water. I don't care, but getting it in right, and getting it out is important. And what's interesting about breath work is, you know, we were talking about sodium, water balance for hydration. Well, with breath work, it's oxygen, carbon dioxide. Balance is what the body is always searching for. So that's when people hyperventilate or hypo ventilate, they don't breathe enough, or they breathe too much, and that changes that balance. And that balance gets changed, that's when problems happen. So really, I would argue that the entire book is really based on balancing your body with just the basic stuff that it needs right is getting enough sleep to have enough wake. That's a balance that you're kind of putting right, sodium and water right, carbon dioxide and oxygen like these are three teeter totters or see saws or balancing acts that we play every day. Our body does it for us automatically, which is pretty cool, when you think about it, that we don't have to worry about it. But I would just argue that you can do all three of those a little bit better, and it has dramatic improvements on your overall health. So I got a plan. It's three weeks long. It's super easy to follow. We make it simple, but you just put some alarms on your phone, make sure that you have, you know, hydration available to you, and some consistent sleep. And you would be surprised how like, the goal here was not to make it complicated. It makes it super simple. I introduced the topics very easily. I'm not. There's no shame. It's just about assessing yourself. So I give you assessment tools to see if you're dehydrated, to see if you're sleep deprived, or to see if you're not breathing correctly, and then once you assess those tools, use those tools to assess it, then you have a place to move forward from.

Brooke Schnittman:

I love that. It's all about balance. And I'm going to ask you a challenging question here. I know it's all about balance, but let's say we're screwed in all three areas. Which one do you start with?

Dr. Michael Breus:

Well, it depends upon how screwed you are. So if you're telling me that you're in a room with no air, air is obviously the most important thing. But other than that, it's really hydration is really the biggest factor. So many people get hurt with poor hydration that don't even know it, and it affects so many areas of your life, mental health. I mean, also, just to be fair, our bodies are so much more water than anything else. Like, I think our brain is like 85% water, you know, like, even our bones have got 20 to 30% water in them, and those are the hardest things in our bodies. So, like, you know, we kind of need to honor that. And so I would say, if you're completely screwed, drink water. That's probably going to help you out the most.

Brooke Schnittman:

All right, so got water, go drink it. And exactly, want to learn more by Dr Bruce's book. When does it come out in October, right?

Dr. Michael Breus:

Yep. So it comes, no, it comes out in December, but we have these pre orders that are really cool. And so here's what's awesome. Is what I've done is, if you go to the sleep doctor.com, forward slash book, and we'll put that in the show notes, you can buy the book now, and you get all kinds of goodies. So I'm giving three different lectures, one on sleep, one on hydration. One on breath work that only pre people who buy the book ahead of time will get, you actually get the plan before you get the book. And I can walk and I'll walk you through it. Also, I have live Q and A's that I'm doing with anybody who buys the book ahead of time, so it's in a group format. But yeah, people will Yeah, people have access. I kind of think of the book as kind of like a ticket to getting access to me, my knowledge, what I'm trying to teach everybody, and get people to answer their questions, because there's only so much I can do in a book. I mean, the book's awesome, like, I want everybody to buy the book clearly, but at the end of the day, I think a lot of the pre order stuff is going to be super duper helpful. So if you want to buy the book now and then enjoy all the pre orders. It's kind of cool.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, sleep, drink, breathe, everybody. Dr Bruce the sleep doctor. Go find him on Instagram and social media at the sleep doctor and at his website, the sleep doctor.com and get his book at the sleep doctor.com forward slash book is that everything did I get it? All right, that's all of it. Okay. All right. Dr, Bruce, well, thank you for being unsuccessful with ADHD. Again. It's always a pleasure to host you, and I know we get so much value in the quality of information and just making us feel not alone and less shameful about some of the challenges we deal with with sleep, with hydration, with breathing and just normalizing it and giving us quality tips. Appreciate that

Dr. Michael Breus:

it's my absolute pleasure to be here and again, in all honesty, like 80 dears are some of my favorite people. I mean, number one, it's my son. But number two, it I wrote the whole book for you guys, like I really want to see you guys succeed and do well, and I want to be clear it is possible. I know it feels hard sometimes, but I just want to be super duper clear. All of you can get a great night's sleep, all of you can get hydrated and all of you can breathe comfortably. I promise, promise, promise. Sweet dreams. Thanks

Brooke Schnittman:

for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us@coachingwithbrooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember, it's Brooke with an E. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you.

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Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC

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