SuccessFULL With ADHD

ADHD Communication Made Easy with Former FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss

• Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC • Season 1 • Episode 47

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I had an incredible conversation with Chris Voss, a former FBI hostage negotiator, in this week's episode of Successful with ADHD. Chris shared so many valuable insights on communication, empathy, and understanding - topics that are very relevant for the ADHD community.

Chris is a former Lead FBI Negotiator and dynamic speaker who debunks the biggest myths around negotiation. Chris engages all groups with captivating stories, insights, and useful tips for business and everyday life. Chris has lectured on negotiation at business schools across the country and has been seen on ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox News. Chris has also been featured in Forbes, Time, Fast Company, and Inc. Chris’s Keynotes are based on his book Never Split The Difference©.

Episode Highlights:
[01:06] – Starstruck by my guest Chris Voss and why his book means so much to me and my husband.
[02:48] - Chris emphasizes the importance of listening and paying attention to more than just words in a conversation.
[03:50] - Strategies Chris suggests for people with ADHD to improve focus when listening intently.
[06:37] - How turning communication into a "game" can help capture wandering attention.
[08:39] - The challenges of reading body language accurately via video calls compared to in-person interactions.
[10:00] - Tips for maintaining engagement and energy on long video calls.
[11:05] - Using the "mirroring" technique to bring attention back to key points you may have missed.
[13:52] - Why some personalities may not enjoy being "mirrored" and prefer different approaches.
[17:22] - The strategic use of apologies before interruptions or assertions.
[19:10] - Why apologies shouldn't necessarily be seen as a sign of weakness.
[20:10] - Whether communication tactics can be used effectively when both parties are aware of them.
[21:33] - Chris explains prospect theory and loss aversion based on the work of Daniel Kahneman.
[25:14] - The importance of empathy and appreciation when using the powerful tool of invoking loss.
[26:34] - The benefits of handwriting over typing for memory retention and focus.
[29:49] - Practicing mental hygiene to counter our innate negativity bias.
[32:33] - Tuning into emotions rather than words when listening.
[35:33] - Paying attention to the "emotional timeline" based on the type of feelings being expressed.
[36:01] - Strategies for bridging disagreements by ensuring people feel truly heard.
[40:03] - Thoughts on reducing conflict through understanding and empathy for all sides.
[40:56] - Whether world peace can ever be achieved.
[43:13] - The importance of making people feel heard in communication.

Connect with Chris Voss:
•Black Swan Ltd - Chris Voss's company website: www.blackswanltd.com
•The Edge weekly email newsletter - get free negotiation tips from Chris
•Never Split the Difference - Chris's bestselling book

I loved diving into so many facets of communication and empathy with an expert like Chris. Let me know if you found this episode valuable by leaving a review! And don't forget to follow along on social media @coachingwithbrooke. See you next time!

Want to be ‘SuccessFULL with ADHD’ by Activating Your ADHD Potential?
Order our 3x best-selling book/workbook for adults with ADHD ▶️ http://bit.ly/activateadhd

Chris Voss:

Every human being and clearly people with ADHD, we're all wired to be negative. I think of it as Mental Hygiene. I need a consistent practice of positive mental hygiene. Same way, we need a consistent practice of positive oral hygiene. Well, I brush my teeth yesterday. Does that mean I got to do it again today? Well, it does. Because our default bio mechanisms are working against us or our default mental mechanisms were designed to be negative. The negative human being is the caveman that survived a negative thing in a cave man's environment will kill you. A positive thing in a cave man's environment doesn't need to be paid attention to because it's not going to stop your existence. So we do overreact to negativity. What does that mean? You got to have a regular practice of gratitude of curiosity. There's a bunch of things that you just got to do to override the system and you got to do it regularly because you get into a downward spiral otherwise,

Brooke Schnittman:

welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke Shipman. Let's get started. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to successful with ADHD. Today, I am starstruck with my husband's first love, Chris Voss. He is a former lead FBI negotiator and dynamic speaker who debunks the biggest myths of negotiation. Chris engages all groups with captivating stories, insights and extremely useful tips for business and everyday life. Chris has lectured on negotiation at business schools across the country and has been seen pretty much everywhere, including ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox, and has been featured in Forbes time Fast Company, and Inc Chris's keynotes are based on his book never split the difference. Very warm. Welcome, Chris. Thank you for being on successful with ADHD. Yeah, my pleasure, Brooke, thanks for having me on. Absolutely. And I make fun of so I have ADHD and so to my clients as soon as my family so I make fun of myself in the fact that I highlight everything, because everything, I sometimes have a hard time understanding what's important and what's not. If you take a look at your book here, and I opened it up, is my husband's copy. Every single line is underlined, and we have notes on it. That's how valuable your book is. He just took endless notes. We both have listened and read it like 20 times. We've engaged in your black swan course, if you couldn't tell. We're huge fans. So again, huge. Thanks. So many people know you as an FBI negotiator. But you really are an expert communicator. Would you say that? Yeah, I mean, communicator collaboration, that sort of thing. Negotiations about? Yeah.

Chris Voss:

And communication in terms of listening, and

Brooke Schnittman:

really listening? Hmm.

Chris Voss:

Yeah, actually listening. And it was an executive, I was talking to someone's back. And he was saying, now he and a fellow CEO, they do a lot of business with the two of them. Were sitting there watching their people talk to each other. And watching negotiations break down that they should be making? And he said, It's due to miscommunication. And I said, is it a miscommunication? Is it because people aren't speaking clearly or because people aren't listening? And he says, not people not listening. So I think the real key is to be actually listen, which takes some effort to it's not that easy. You know, it's not easy to us.

Brooke Schnittman:

It's not, especially when you don't necessarily agree with what the other person saying, right? Or we want to jump to the answer, because we feel like we know what they're getting at. But it's taking too long for them to get there.

Chris Voss:

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Brooke Schnittman:

So what kind of strategies would you give someone, especially with ADHD, because we have executive dysfunction? We Daydream when people are talking to us, if we're not interested, we usually miss half of the conversation, if not more, we also have working memory issues. So if there's too much being said, it's hard for us to hold on to multi steps.

Chris Voss:

Yeah, I think, you know, it's a supplemental stuff and a communication. Like, there's a there's a ratio that I like a lot. It's very unscientific, called 738 55. And a lot of people that communicate verbally for living really believe it's a good ratio, and seven plus 38 plus 55 equals 100. What it is, is that the communication comes across 7% and the words 38% in the tone of voice and 55 in a body language. Now, if all you're listening to is the words, everybody has the bandwidth for just awards all by themselves, and I think that's why a lot of people, their minds wander they multitask, because you keep track of the words easily. The brain has in very unscientific terms. ability to, we speak at about 140 to 160 words a minute. And the brain can absorb four to 600 words per minute. So that leaves all this excess bandwidth, if you're only paying attention to the words, but if you're looking at the whole alignment, if you're listening as much to the tone of voice, and then kind of doing math in your head, just the tone match the words, you know, how do you add focus? Or how do you take that excess capacity and make it work together? You start doing a comparative in the conversation to the words, and the tone and the body language match up. And if they do awesome, like we're on track, but if they don't, then you ask yourself, alright, something must be behind this. Now, what do you do? How do you catch somebody when you're lying? You know, everybody lies to some degree, at some point in time catches somebody. Holding information back and not telling the truth is not the challenge. The challenge is getting them to tell you the truth. So when things don't add up, how do you get the person to talk about it to bring it up. And it's often something just as simple as a label, like, it seems like something just crossed your mind. If you're consistently trying to label someone in a conversation, that also brings your attention back down to them. It helps you add tone of voice and words together. And it helps you discover what's lurking beneath the surface that you're missing. And it's not always implied by what they're saying. So if you look at communication, kind of as this game that you can play,

Brooke Schnittman:

and we love games with ADHD. Well,

Chris Voss:

and that's the thing I was gonna say, my guess is not really being familiar with ADHD. But I would imagine, I would speculate, I would hypothesize that the ADHD community does love games, because it's the opportunity, there's a lot of information, and you got to pick up on all of it and try to add it all together. Communication can be the same kind of a game, how you know, what's the words? What's the tone? What's the look on their face? What do I guess? It means, as opposed to what do I wish it means? Or what should it mean? Where should they be going? If it becomes a guessing game, then you have a tendency to be a little bit more absorbed by the communication and pay closer attention. Yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

I love the game of fIying piece and that 55% is body language. I always thought for whatever reason that body language was 80%. And that so much can be said, the body language?

Chris Voss:

Well, it might be dependent on the on the context, you know, the 738 35 ratio is not a hard number. And what really is important is, you know, body language is 80%. There's still a four to one ratio to what's being said. So, you know, the game is in the tone of voice and the body language. And then I would contend that, especially if you're a person, I think there's an apt everybody has an actual physical energy. Yeah. And I think some of that is communicated as well in person. The real dilemma with Zoom is not that you're not seeing the person's whole body, we're seeing as much as we would be saying, if we were sitting in a conference table, what we're missing is the energy that would be in a room and I think there's something I think there is we just haven't learned how to measure it yet, but I think it's there.

Brooke Schnittman:

That's fascinating. So speaking of zoom, I know a lot of us have zoom fatique Do you have any ideas or suggestions in someone whose job has totally converted to zoom or video conference? To be able to sustain attention throughout the day with that one

Chris Voss:

of the guys in my company they're gone has got a desk, a standing desk that actually lifts he spends a lot of time on a screen because we trade online a lot of Derek is our best coach and he coaches people through negotiations constantly all over the world. I mean, literally all over the world. So he's on Zoom, and he's got this raising and lowering task. And he stands a lot, you know, and sometimes when I get fatigued, you know sitting is not that good. You know, what are these? There's a cliche sitting is the new smoking.

Brooke Schnittman:

Wow, I didn't hear that. But I get that. Yeah,

Chris Voss:

I've I've I've I wish I would have coined that term personally. But I've got different elevating platforms put my computer on. And especially in the afternoon, when the bar rhythms are down, I'll stand you know, get get on your feet. Even if it's just a standard you're desperate Few words.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, like that. Having a set. That's what I'm doing right now I'm on a standing desk. And you're right. If I sit all day, my joints are so tight. I feel like I'm 80 years old. And just completely, like shrunk. So yes, I like them be being able to move whether you're neurodiverse or not.

Chris Voss:

Right? Yeah, exactly.

Brooke Schnittman:

So one thing that you had mentioned that helps in understanding someone's what they're trying to say. And really listening is by looking at body language hearing what they have to say that. And I mean this respectfully. So I want your wisdom.

Chris Voss:

Oh, here we go. Respectfully. All right. All right, respectfully. Do I have

Brooke Schnittman:

you on edge? Am I giving a shit sandwich? For someone with ADHD, they can take in lots of different stimuli, right. So that might not be hard for them to to look at all that. But at the same time, when they're really trying to look at the body language, the the facial expressions, the way someone's communicating their tone, it can distract them from what the person's actually saying. And then they can totally miss everything that they're saying. So do you have any recommendations in when you're missing what a person is saying, to bring back attention to what they have said without offending them?

Chris Voss:

Yeah, one of our skills, which we refer to as the mirror, which is not the body language, mirror, hostage negotiators mirror, the Black Swans mirror is just a repetition of one to three ish words, to be repeating one word can be up to five, it's never really more than five, because then you're getting into paraphrasing. But and the mirror skill, when we teach it, is repeating the last the last one to three words, which if you're having trouble paying attention, you got distracted, you can probably pull up out of the dim recesses of your short term memory, the last three words that were just spoken. Now what that does is it brings the conversation back to whatever you've mirrored and it does so in a way with the person that's talking doesn't feel it's redundant. The mirror has kind of a funny mechanism in the brain. If you won't repeat it the same way. If I mirror you, you will say the same thing only with different words, you change the words, versus if you say something that I either missed. Or I want to know more about if I say what did you mean by that? You know, what did you mean by mirror, you're probably going to repeat it exactly the same way, sort of like an American overseas. Where is the Eiffel Tower to a French person? Just say it again? Only lad, right, right. But the mirror triggers something in the Speaker's brain, that the person who mirrored them is saying, like, look, I'm really interested. I'd like to know more about that point. I heard the words you said and they weren't enough for me. So I'd like you to go back and expand. And all of that is communicated by just repeating the last one to three ish words, or one to three words selected, you can move it around, it doesn't have to be the last words. But the mirror in particular is great for going back and covering ground on stuff that you may have missed. Or your gut is telling you there's more there like add it was something about that, that bothers me. You know, it's might be the tip of the iceberg. So you can mirror that particular portion. And the speaker loves it. People love to be mirrored

Brooke Schnittman:

now I know there is the one type of group that doesn't love the mirror. Right? Well,

Chris Voss:

let me see. Sometimes when people are are particularly guarded, we believe that there's three types of serves analysts and accommodators. Now starters love to talk so mirror mirroring men will keep them going all day. Like there's a there's a story in my book. One of my employees told my son in advance, you know, on when we get to when we get to work that I am going to mirror Chris. That's all I'm gonna do. And we're as soon as dude's name was Keane and Keenan had been married me and I've been yammering and Yammer and in Yammer and for good 45 minutes at a time in finding my son Brandon goes like, Oh, God, I can't take it anymore. He's been married for the last 45 minutes and he didn't even know. So this sort is love to be married. Now, the analyst, the highly analytical type, deeply introspective. Occasionally you mirror them, and they'll give you a one word response. Now what that really is communicating if someone's response is Very limited is there guarded. Now the guarded because you haven't earned their trust. They're guarded because they're concerned you're not listening. They're guarded because something else is bothering them. It's basically those three things. So when you mirror them, then you can you can shift over to a label simply if I marry you, and you give me a one word answer, I'll probably say, seems like I haven't earned your trust yet. And that one, two combination is going to draw you out one way or another. If it's true, you're going to open up. If it's not true, you'll actually correct me. And that's another form of opening up. So if somebody doesn't like to be mirrored, that they probably a little more desirous of being labeled to be drawn out. And you just have to simply demonstrate that you've got to listen. And that you're not going to you're not going to be the AHA listener. That catches them in a moment. Yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

I like that a lot. My husband used that on me when we first met and I must have been guarded, and he didn't know my trust yet. So I'm like, Well, yes, stop repeating back what I'm saying. Let's move on.

Chris Voss:

Well, when you first met, I, you know, I gotta I gotta I gotta check this guy out. He's got a he's got to, he's got to pass a few tests.

Brooke Schnittman:

Like, what is he doing? Exactly? You don't have my trust, yet. We both come in baggage. Give me some time. That's great. I love that. Of course, my, my memory is like all over the place right now. So I'm trying to remember what I was going to say when you were talking.

Chris Voss:

Yeah, we're going for an extensive period of time.

Brooke Schnittman:

I know I love it. I love it. I was really listening. So I can probably repeat back what you said, but I don't have the next thing. And you know what, that actually brings up a good point. When we try so hard to listen, right? You talk about the marrying, right. But like, with impulsivity with ADHD, we don't want to lose our train of thought when someone else is talking, they might have said something that springs up another point to like, defend their stance or whatever. What is the recommendation when you're trying so hard not to lose your train of thought, but you also want to listen? Well,

Chris Voss:

you know, if there's something it's really necessary for me to get out, and it's, it's not an ad hoc, gotcha, sort of thing. I'll say, Look, I'm sorry, I'm gonna bring this up. You know, I apologize. I use apologies. As warnings for behavior that might otherwise be disruptive or offensive. You know, it's kind of a sequence. If you're going to if you're going to risk offending someone, it's, it's a little bit like, if you slap somebody in the face, and then apologize. Or if you apologize to let them know a slap in the face is coming. They're gonna appreciate the warning. We've had a lot of discussion about apology towards I'm sorry, is it weakness? You know, and especially historically, probably five maybe 10 years ago, I don't know if it's as true as it used to be. A lot of people were telling women don't ever apologize, woman apologize too much. If towards I'm sorry, we're in and of themselves wrong. Like I apologize all the time. Just before I get ready to assert just before I get ready to interrupt the airline, I mean, even apologize twice before I disagree. And I'm texting with some friends on a group group chat just yesterday, and somebody wanted to do something that I have no desire to do at all. And I started with an apology. I said, I'm sorry, I'm afraid I'm just not good at that. I don't want to do it. And it landed much more nicely. So if if I got something I gotta say, I'm gonna I'm gonna open it up. Look, I'm sorry. I'm afraid I gotta say something right now, because I'm gonna lose my train of thought. And it'll be more acceptable. Yeah, I

Brooke Schnittman:

like how you're giving people permission to do that. Because you're absolutely right. There was such a negative connotation for saying sorry, and with ADHD were people pleasers very often so we are apologizing for like our mere existence. So using it in a way where it's helping you communicate better and gain control of your thoughts. I love that it's not a sign of weakness. It's actually a sign of strength, and

Chris Voss:

a desire to collaborate. And if you didn't want to collaborate with me then okay, maybe we shouldn't be talking to begin with. Right?

Brooke Schnittman:

Right, right. Do you I feel like I know the answer to this already. But if two parties know your communication tactics and have studied you, aka my husband and I do you feel like there's ever A chance that you can have effective communication with your communication strategies without feeling like it's manipulative.

Chris Voss:

Yeah, that's a great question. And a lot of it comes up in a lot of contexts. What these skills are, are highly effective skills, highly effective tool, which makes them really neutral. It's more what they're being used for, like, we use these skills in my company. I mean, there's 26 of us, we use them on each other all the time constantly, because they're trying to accelerate our collaboration. And my favorite analogy is a scalpel in one person's hands. It's a murder weapon in another person's hands. It's a life saving tool. It's in the hands of the user. And so yeah, we use the skills all the time, now, I have, I can smell when somebody is using them against me. And that happens. Not all the time, but not infrequently. And if I, you know, intention has a smell, as somebody once said to me, you know, if it's triggered my gut instinct that somehow I'm being manipulated, I'll give you a little rope. It'll all test you a couple of ways. But if you're using a stuff against me that I just break off contact, that's

Brooke Schnittman:

good. Thank you. Yeah. Also, can you get into the science of the brain that you've learned and quoted from Daniel Kahneman? For our listeners? Yeah, well,

Chris Voss:

there's, you know, there's, there's a lot of interesting brain science out there that this works with and the Kahneman stuff really has to do much more with Prospect Theory. And economists got some interesting stories about instinct that I really liked too. But, you know, Prospect Theory, Kahneman, Nobel Prize behavioral economics 2002, I believe, and the cliffnotes version of it is a loss things twice as much as an equivalent gain. Losing $5 feels like you're lost 10. And there's a lot of versions around that people are more likely to make a decision to avoid a loss in the yard or accomplish a gate. So the impact of loss we call it, I refer to it as bending reality distorts your vision of what just happened by double. And it's one of the most powerful skills in communication, which is why using loss, the prospect of loss without empathy, makes you seem like Bond villain, like a really bad person. And, and it is highly influential. So you got to use empathy, you got to use appreciation, you got to use a lot of emotional intelligence in order to wield this tool, because it's so powerful. Quite a number of years ago, I had to renegotiate contracts for people that I was hiring, and who were also friends. And for a short period of time, I needed them to take a 75% cut. But that was the reality of the situation, this and they knew me to be an honest guy and a straight shooter, which put me in a position to be able to deal with this kind of an issue. If, you know, if I was constantly trying to get over on somebody, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have the reputation for integrity to be able to breach this subject. But I started out by saying, like, look, I got a lousy proposition for you, which is a version of I got bad news coming, I'm sorry, I'm afraid you ain't gonna like what I have to say. And then I said, here's the reality of what I could pay over the next few months. I wanted to offer this to you first, before it took it to somebody else. Now, this is triggering condiments last theory. Now the money is theirs to lose, not to gain and the reality of the situation, which I had one of them say, you said, you know, give me 24 hours to think about it. He called me back. And he said, Well, you know, $500 a day beats $0 a day. I needed him to make a comparative of if he didn't accept what I couldn't pay in that timeframe, then he wasn't gonna get paid at all. Now, if I started out by saying, like, look, this is all I can pay, and you can take it or leave it. But if you leave it, you get nothing. You know, that's inflicting loss with no empathy, but no emotional intelligence with no appreciation. And the impact of that would have been that would have made me the biggest jerk in the world and probably would have destroyed our relationship, because loss is that impactful. So it's just really powerful tool that Danny Kahneman told us works on all human beings, which is why I got the Nobel Prize for it. Because it's on all people. It's not All Americans kind of want to have to be Israeli. It's not an Israelis. You know, it's not on English speakers. You know, it's, it's on humans, but loss is twice as much as an equivalent gain. And so you gotta be careful with this powerful weapon.

Brooke Schnittman:

Wow. Yeah, that's huge. Now someone who's not in your position who's not an expert communicator and is trying to learn these tools, would you recommend that if they're going into a difficult conversation like that, they write down their scripts ahead of time just to make sure that they're bringing in tactical empathy.

Chris Voss:

Yeah, I think it's a great way to get yourself started. And if you're writing it down, to put a fine point on it, handwriting is always better than typing. There's, I haven't seen any hard science before. But some of the things I've heard, I believe to be true. Friend of mine once said, you retain 40%. More if you handwrite than versus if you type i My theory is if you're typing, you get 10 fingers. Ideally, if you type with 10 fingers that are multitasking, each fingers is engaged in a different task simultaneously, which is bad for the brain. But when your handwriting you've got all five digits, on one hand, focused on one thing, and I think that's one of the reasons why handwriting is more effective, because it forces your brain to concentrate. I've also found myself to memorize things better when I had right and simultaneously, I have more creative ideas when I'm handwriting.

Brooke Schnittman:

I agree, I heard that as well. And I haven't seen the science either that your working memory improves when you're writing something down, so you're more likely to retain it. A principal told me that once Yeah,

Chris Voss:

and I you know, I thought it through and I'm like alright, so I got all five digits working together, is drawing more of my brain into the same place to me. I mean, that's, that's my reason why it works.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah. Something spurred thought when you were talking about our attention beings, all over the place when we're typing, because we have 10 digits that are in different keys. Have you changed your approach and communication now compared to when you first started years ago? Because everyone's attention span has shortened?

Chris Voss:

Yeah, no, I think so. I mean, I've always tried to listen really well. My biggest struggle is tone of voice is a natural born assertive. If I don't watch it, the assertive tone of voice is is the tone that's almost is pretty much always counterproductive. And then also, you know, I also have told people that I have arresting serial killer face. You know, if I'm listening intently, you know, I'm gonna scare you. Because, you know, yeah, I'll be listening so intently, you'll think, you know, I'm imagining chopping you up and having your liver with fava beans and a nice piano, or something like that.

Brooke Schnittman:

So people have a hard time looking at you when you're listening intently. Oh, they're scared.

Chris Voss:

Like it. I've actually had people say that I remember years ago. I'm trying to decide. I joined the National Speakers Association a long time ago before the book came out. And I attended a meeting in LA and the speaker is phenomenal speaker just just absolutely phenomenal. I learned so much from her. And I, and it was a small group. As you know, there's probably only about 20 of us in a room, not a big room. And I came up to her afterwards. And when I got to know her, she's like, Look, you scared me. I mean, the way you were the way you were looking at me when I was talking. I didn't know what you had in mind whether you want to kill me. What do you want to do? Like yeah, no, I'm sorry. I got a serial killer face.

Brooke Schnittman:

Oh, that's funny. That's funny. My husband he has a very serious look on him as well. So I'm always thinking that he's mad or agitated about something. It's like well, yes. Stop it. You're pissing. It's my look I love. Yes, exactly. Don't you see I'm smiling inside? No, I have no idea your face never changes. And then he looks ridiculous when he actually tries to change his face like it's painful. Exactly, exactly. So another question, if you don't mind. Accurate thinking, I know is a strategy you teach and effective communication. And with ADHD we very often have a hard time differentiating between story and fact. Because of our past negative experiences trauma, rejection, shame. Do you have any strategies to help in understanding fat from story with accurate thinking?

Chris Voss:

Every human being and clearly people with ADHD have it? This issue intensified. So you know, I'm not trying to make it sound like everybody has the same Challenge. But there's a certain amount of why we were all wired to be negative. I think of it as Mental Hygiene, I need a consistent practice of positive mental hygiene. Same way, we need a consistent practice of positive oral hygiene. Which means you got to brush your teeth twice a day. Well, I brush my teeth yesterday is that mean? I got to do it again today what it does, because our default bio mechanisms are working against us, or our default mental mechanisms were designed to be negative. The negative human being is the caveman that survived. And that I've heard a lot of discussions of it, you know, the negativity in particular, a negative thing and a caveman's environment will kill you a positive thing and a caveman's environment doesn't need to be paid attention to because it's not going to stop your existence. So we do overreact to negativity. What does that mean? You gotta have a regular practice of gratitude of curiosity, there's a bunch of things that you just got to do to override the system and you got to do it regularly. And it could be a whole variety of issues. Because you get into a downward spiral. Otherwise, one thing is a gratitude exercise to start your day. Another thing that I have found that I'm inconsistent, somebody pointed out an exercise to me the other day, find three new things in my environment that I like every day, three new lights every day. But there's got to be some sort of intentional override of this system, otherwise, you will get into a downward

Brooke Schnittman:

spiral. Absolutely. I heard somewhere that 80% of our thoughts are negative and 95% of our thoughts are repetitive. So if you think of it that way, and that's everyone. And then you add ADHD to the mix, and we are receiving 10,000 more negative messages in childhood than a neurotypical. So it's hard. And I like what you said about like the negative caveman, because it's true like you when, you know, I don't know if it's generational or what, but in order to survive, we had to constantly be on alert. Then we had threats in front of us all the time.

Chris Voss:

Yeah. Because yeah, negative stuff will kill you.

Brooke Schnittman:

I have another question. Going back to tactical empathy. So with emotional dysregulation, it's hard sometimes to understand what the other person is feeling or what we're feeling, too. How can you tap into that? intentionally

Chris Voss:

making it when I'm listening for versus awards? Like if I if I lay back and just kind of forget about what you're actually saying, and focus on the emotions behind it, then pretty soon, I'll know you're going to say before you say, Now, that sounds easy. And it's a lot harder to execute. But there have been points in time in my life. Back when I was volunteered on a crisis hotline in New York City. And I just get it in my head, just emotional level all the time. And I've had people say, Why you read my mind. And my reaction would be like, Wow, I was reading your emotions, and you felt like I was reading your mind. So well, you know, what am I listening for? As soon as I start getting into the habit of listening exclusively for motions, you're going to feel very connected to me and I'm going to miss a lot less.

Brooke Schnittman:

Can you give like one or two things that you now you can tune into when someone is talking? To help them listen into emotions?

Chris Voss:

Um, you know, that's a pretty educated guess. What's the educated guess I'll make an advance. I'll take a look. Look at your face. And guess like, alright, so you look preoccupied. If you're preoccupied, something you're worried about concern. People are rarely preoccupied with positivity. They're usually preoccupied with negativity. So I'll start saying like, Oh, you know what's going on here? I'd say you look concerned, the type of emotion there's a bit of a timeline. If you're concerned, you're worried about something in the future. If you're angry, you're hurt about something that happened in the past. The type of emotion is going to tell me on a timeline in your existence is in front of you, or is it behind you? And then I'm going to start to get more clues as to what's going on even pointed out to you understand the difference between anger and frustration. Those are two very different problem sets that you're struggling with. Frustration is about the future. Anger is about the past. I'll begin to look for clues in your life timeline of the emotions that you're struggling with is going to tell me where your attention is. Hmm.

Brooke Schnittman:

I like that. Because when you were on the phone at the crisis hotline, you weren't seeing them. So you had to understand the timeline. Have their history or just

Chris Voss:

dial into the voice only. I mean, it's a great exercise for just dialing into voice period. Like there's so much information in the voice. If you're confined, you know, I don't know, there's sort of the stereotype that when somebody goes blind that all their other senses become heightened. And maybe it's just because they're caused to focus on your hearing because their sights taken away. And if that's true at all, I would analogize that to crisis hotline on the phone.

Brooke Schnittman:

Thank you. Appreciate that. And one of the last questions I have is when people disagree, right, we're talking over each other, we just can't get to a resolution, you say compromises bullshit. So and there's like valid reasons for saying that because everyone loses in that. So what do you recommend if people two sides just cannot agree on something?

Chris Voss:

But when people disagree that the first and biggest and it's not the only chunk, but the first and biggest obstacle in disagreement is whether or not somebody actually feels heard. And when you feel heard, actually a number of different neural chemicals kick into gear which change the conversation. You know, that's why empathy seems like what good is to do to let somebody know that they are understood? Well, if I can make you feel understood, most likely you're going to get hit of the neurochemicals, oxytocin and serotonin, just by the feeling of being truly understood. So what is oxytocin? Oxytocin binds you to me. And oxytocin also inclines you to tell the truth. Hmm, it was a nuance I picked up on Andrew Huber wins podcast, he was talking about relationships. And oxytocin Vantur Haberman, and he kicked that one out that if you're more honest, when you get your own oxytocin, I was like, Oh, that explains a lot. And then there's the kicker of serotonin. Serotonin is a feeling of satisfaction. So you're satisfied, you want less just by being feeling that you were hurt. So imagine the amount of disagreement this is going to go away. If you bond to me, you're honest with me and you're more satisfied. It's going to cause a lot, if not all of the disagreement to go away. And a lot of disagreements are simply over being hurt. So I will cut down a lot more of this or I may get clues to the rest of it. Like I'm I'm listening to big consumer podcasts in general, Andrew Huberman and Lex Friedman, both listen to Friedman's interview of Mohamed El card, Palestinian poet, have been listening to it intensely over the last couple days because of the current situation in Gaza. And Lex asked these great questions in a very empathic, empathic, non judgmental, you know, I believe in the beauty of communication and beauty of all mankind. And he's asking Muhammad occurred, does he have hate in his heart? And he asked him in such a nice way that while many occurrences he does, and then he kind of says, Why are you hanging on to it? How's it helping you? He says it far more eloquently than that. No courage says that it helps him retain his dignity. Now, I would never have guessed that and 9 billion years. Like from a from a distance. It's a cliche that hate is taking a poison and hoping somebody else dies. It poisons you and not the other person. And I've always been mystified to some people's determination to hold on to hate. And when he said that I like Oh, my God. Yes, of course. And that's why some people have such a horrific time letting go of it. And I thought, well, the next time I'm in a conversation, I'm going to have more an appreciation for the emotional driver over there. Because as a human being the trend is hanging on to their shreds of dignity, which now opens up another avenue of resolution and helps me appreciate even more than need to work to preserve the other side's dignity or even recognize that in a conversation. And these nuances like that come from actually hearing somebody out. So there's a really good chance in an intractable disagreement. If you're really looking to hear somebody out, they're going to be clues to a whole new avenue of resolution that would never have occurred to you If you didn't step through a couple of the initial doors, that's

Brooke Schnittman:

fascinating. Yeah, and Lex Friedman is Jewish too. So you know to be so empathetic and wise with his words about the war in Gaza. It's powerful. I saw him with Elon Musk, too. That's a powerful interview as well.

Chris Voss:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm big, big Lex big Lex Freeman fan. I think, you know, I love listening to his approach. Yeah,

Brooke Schnittman:

just so calm, his tone of voice is calming. And he doesn't really give too much opinion. It's more just thoughts. Are your thoughts about this?

Chris Voss:

There? Yeah. And good questions.

Brooke Schnittman:

Great questions. Agreed. And this is a side note to ADHD. But since you brought up Gaza, do you think that the world can ever not have war?

Chris Voss:

Don't know that we're ever going to escape it entirely. Does that mean that I'm still not going to do as much as I could possibly, though, to deactivate as much of it as possible? You know, and I personally am willing to accept fighting that losing battle, every everything that I can possibly do to impact to increase empathy, the more we increase understanding, empathy is not agreement and empathy is not sympathy. Empathy is not compassion, although it's a compassionate thing to do. So the more that we can add, just simple understanding of one or another, and respect will diminish war as much as we possibly can whether or not we can ever escape it. You know, probably that let me just diminish it as much as possible.

Brooke Schnittman:

And this term, I don't know if I'm quoting it correctly, is it white slating where you just fall on the sword and essentially, like apologize for everything that has taken place and try to move forward. So the person's listening?

Chris Voss:

Well, it's probably close to what you're talking about. We you know, and we've got a strategy called the accusations audit, which is me recognizing the accusations you either do might or will have against me, not admitting them, simply recognizing them, and show you that I'm not afraid of the negativity that you may think about me. And me and my team, we teach that to be very proactive with that. And we find it to be a great way to clear the air and to clear pupils think,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah, we do that my husband is in sales and marketing. And he taught me that strategy from you. And at the end of a sales call, to do the accusation audit, if they have time that they need to think about it, or you know, whatever, to just make sure that they feel comfortable saying now, getting all that out. We're not judging them. Exactly.

Chris Voss:

It's just getting it out in the air. It's kind of that simple. What

Brooke Schnittman:

would you leave the listeners here with today? One thing and I think I know, you're gonna say, because you brought it up a few times, one suggestion that you have for effective communication for all. Just hear

Chris Voss:

people out, make them feel that you heard him out. If you let somebody know, and confirm to them that they've been heard, you're going to be astonished at how it will accelerate communication and collaboration. And it's not saying I understand what you're saying. It's feeding back what you what you believe that understanding to be articulating it, that's the only way somebody's going to feel heard, is if you check in and say, here's what I think you're saying, in any way, the more effort you seem to derail a conversation by taking the time out to make somebody feel heard. It's going to accelerate everything make people feel heard, and life is going to be a lot more pleasant.

Brooke Schnittman:

I love that. And thank you so much for coming on. So successful with ADHD. If anyone wants help with communication negotiation, where can they find you?

Chris Voss:

Yeah, we'll have the best kind of a two step thing our website is black swan ltd.com B la CK Swa n ltd.com. There are no crazy silent consonants in there you know, and we put out a weekly newsletter which is complimentary, it's free, but the most important thing about it is concise. So go to the website, click on a tab for the edge, which gives you are we believe a communication edge. You sign up you get an email to you on Tuesday morning. And you'll get concise, actionable article every Tuesday morning that will take you know time to get through some of the 100 Awards ish and and plus the edges a gateway to everything. We have got a lot on the website a lot of free stuff in the edge is the way to get there. So I would invite anyone that is interested in learning more to sign up for a newsletter.

Brooke Schnittman:

I agree with that. I get your newsletters. They're amazing. And after you realize how amazing they are, go buy his book never split the difference. When's your next one coming out?

Chris Voss:

Ah, you know, I don't know we're working. We got a lot of other projects in the pipeline other than a book so we just keep trading and putting material out.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, I hear that. Well, everything you put out there is gold. So I very much appreciate your time. Time is money and time is valuable. And thank you for listening and sharing your gold with our community here today. pleasure

Chris Voss:

was mine, Brock, thank you for thank you for having me on.

Brooke Schnittman:

Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey. And if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke and remember, it's Brooke with Annie. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.

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